2. speakers
  3. 147630-72968

Dual vs single sub

Sorry Im sure this is all over the forums but I only found old articles. Situation. I have Two SVS 3000s that arent really doing it for me. Thinking of trading it in on the Big one and adding another in a year or so. Any thoughts on Big single vs 2 Medium?
128x128bryantdrew
millercarbon's avatar
millercarbon
12,531 posts
 
Yeah I bet it would. Which is why I did it. Details posted just now in my Tech article.
noble100's avatar
noble100
2,419 posts
 
bstatmeister:
" I really only have 1 place it could fit while still having acceptable WAF - in the corner of the room just to the right of the right main. Hopefully, that position will suffice."
Hello bstatmeister,
     Placing a sub in a corner position usually results in a perceived bass boost in the room due to the close proximity of the 2 walls there that bass sound waves can reflect off. 
     The sub crawl is definitely the best method of attaining good bass response at your listening seat when utilizing only a single sub and room positioning options aren't so restricted.
     I'd suggest positioning the sub as many inches as possible away from directly in the corner, given your limited space,  will be less of a bass performance compromise.  You should be able to clearly notice that the bass will sound more natural and accurate in 1 of the 2 positions. 

 lordrootman:
" Your best bet to archive deep clean bass is missing subs together from 2-4 brand
im using SVS PC13 ultra with two klipsch SW-115
way better than using only one brand
also use both red and white outputs with Y adaptor  don’t use only LFE."

 Hello lordrootman,
       While there are no reasons mixing different sub brands or even sub types would be detrimental, there are also no reasons I'm aware of that mixing sub brands or even types would be beneficial.  Perhaps lordrootman could elaborate and enlighten us.

mijostyn:
" For all you people planning subs on a limited budget just buy the first one and add another when you can. For point source speakers 2 subs will get you 90% there. For you panel jockeys, Magnapans and electrostats you are going to have to shoot for 4."

Hello mijostyn,
      I think your idea, for people planning subs on a limited budget to just buy the first one and add another when they can, is a very good one.
      I believe a good approach would be buying the Dayton SA1000 1K watt class AB sub amp for about $300 and buying or building a single passive sub with a 10" or 12" aluminum long-throw driver, in a stiff cabinet that is either sealed or ported with plugs for optional sealing and about a 1sqft footprint.  This bass system could then be improved upon by adding up to 3 more subs as their budget allowed over time.  
       However, I disagree with your statement that using 2 subs with point source speakers will get you 90% of the bass response performance of using 4 subs in a dba system.  If we agree with Duke's statement that 2 subs in a room provides twice the bass smoothness of 1 sub and 4 subs in a room provides twice the bass smoothness of 2 subs, this would mathematically result in an accurate statement being that "using 2 subs with point source speakers will get you 50% of the bass response performance of using 4 subs in a dba system, not 90%.  
     I also agree with your statement of " For you panel jockeys, Magnapans and electrostats you are going to have to shoot for 4."  Planar magnetic speakers like Magnepans and electrostatic speakers like Martin Logans and Sound Labs are considered fast speakers that are notoriously difficult to seamlessly match subs with. Single or dual subs, especially those with 12 or 15 inch drivers, are just not capable of matching the speed of these fast speakers and, as a result, the bass seems to lag behind, be poorly integrated and sound disconnected to the fast and nimble qualities these speakers consistently display.  My experiences using Magnepan panels with the AK Debra dba system with 4 faster and more nimble 10" driver subs, is that there's a very seamless and quality to the reproduced sound that just seems like a very well integrated whole.

     

mijostyn:
"IMH experience the best performance comes from sealed, enclosed 12" subs Q @ 7 with Room control and a high powered class AB amp damping > 500, the higher the better. The only difficult variable is the enclosure itself which ideally should be infinitely stiff and heavy."

     I agree with you in general but I know excellent performance can also come from 4 ported 10" subs powered by a high powered class AB or class D amp with a damping factor >500.  The Debra/Swarm sub enclosures are very stiff and reasonably heavy.
     From my perspective, the primary reason for the sota  in-room bass response performance achieved through the use of dbas is still the fact that there are 4 fast and nimble subs producing bass sound waves from strategically varied positions in the room. 
      There are other important factors but having 4 well distributed sources of bass in any room is the crucial ingredient in creating this delicious psycho-acoustical cake. 
Tim
audiokinesis
2,747 posts
 

 "If we agree with Duke's statement that 2 subs in a room provides twice the bass smoothness of 1 sub and 4 subs in a room provides twice the bass smoothness of 2 subs..."

I was paraphrasing my mentor, Earl Geddes. 

Not only does the frequency response get smoother at a given location, but the frequency response variations from one location to another within the room also decrease (which follows from the first statement, but it may not be obvious). 

Duke

noble100's avatar
noble100
2,419 posts
 
audiokinesis:

"If we agree with Duke's statement that 2 subs in a room provides twice the bass smoothness of 1 sub and 4 subs in a room provides twice the bass smoothness of 2 subs..."

I was paraphrasing my mentor, Earl Geddes.

Not only does the frequency response get smoother at a given location, but the frequency response variations from one location to another within the room also decrease (which follows from the first statement, but it may not be obvious).

Duke"


Hello Duke,

     So to paraphrase my mentor, you, not only does an AK Swarm/Debra or custom 4-sub distributed bass array system's bass sound approximately twice as smooth at a given location than using 2-subs at a given location, but the bass will sound smoother from one location to another within the room, too.  

     It was not initially obvious to me that smoother bass from one location to another within a given room follows from smoother bass at a given location within that room until you emphasized this. Based on my experiences using the AK Debra dba system within my own room, however, it was initially very obvious to me exactly how this bass smoothness manifested itself as sota bass performance not only at a given location within the room (my dedicated listening seat) but virtually my entire 23' x16' room.  

     I have 6 seating positions in my room: a leather recliner centered on the rear 16' wall which is my dedicated listening sweet spot seat, a leather couch with 3 individually reclining seating positions along the right 23' wall and 2 large chairs straddling a 6' x 8' window along the left 23' wall.  

     Of course, only my listening sweet spot seat is positioned for optimum stereo imaging and the other 5 seating positions have compromised stereo imaging of varying degrees.  But, based on my own evaluations and the enthusiastic and very positive non-professional reviews from multiple family members and friends, the bass performance at all 6  seating positions in my room  is perceived as state of the art for music and ht. 

      I've even informally evaluated the bass response at all of the non-seating areas of my room between my main front speakers/hdtv and the back wall, and was unable to find a single spot at which the bass was not equally and consistently excellent.   Perhaps you're thinking I'm too easily pleased or exaggerating, but I honestly can't think of of a single audible bass performance aspect that requires improvement.

     In the spirit of honesty, however, I believe I must make it clear there is a rather obvious and serious downside to using a dba system that has nothing to do with the virtually guaranteed excellent sound of the bass of these systems; it does require the use of 4 physical boxes in the room.  There's no dismissing or ignoring this fact that, in my experience on audio forums describing the sonic virtues of dbas, can often be a deal killer for many potential adopters.  

     I believe the subject of how to best accommodate 4 moderately sized wooden boxes (my AK Debra subs are 12x12x28 inches in size) in a domestic room environment is probably best addressed on a separate thread.  So I'll refrain from discussing this and just refer those to my system pics for those curious.

Tim

hifidream's avatar
hifidream
135 posts
 
I made my secondary subs coffee tables :) An inch thick piece of glass in top with a lamp and no one even knows they are speakers, the WAF went way up at that point.

I agree with many above, four subs is the way to go, independently powered and signal driven through a mini DSP gives you flexibility to add room correction through room measurement via Room EQ Wizard (REW) in conjunction with Multi Sub Optimizer (MSO). My mains are passive subs running off of a Pass Labs X-250 and the secondary subs are SVS SB-16 Ultras which have their own amps built in. All are connected via balanced connections. The bass is accurate, powerful, and adds so much to music and movies. I add a little bass in my movie setting and had friends jump out of the couch a few times during a recent action movie. Pure fun. 
More to discover