2. amps-preamps
  3. 148037-20132

Thiel 3.7's and Pass Labs xa60.5's- now looking for the next upgrade

I finally took the plunge and bought a pair xa60.5's mono's to drive my Thiels- and the upgrade has brought my system to a whole new level.  I was looking to get a deeper, more developed soundstage and with the Pass mono's I got more than I was expecting: the speakers virtually disappear, and you can see into the performance- the sound has a much more refined texture and everything is more fleshed out.   So now I am wondering what should be the next step up.  What I am looking to do is to get more spatial cues, and I suppose detail, to have a better sense of the recording venue and bring me closer to that sense of a live performance. 
My intention is to stay with Pass Labs and the Thiel's so I am thinking more of a preamp or dac upgrade.  The preamp is a Primaluna Dialogue Premium with Telefunken Nos tubes and the dac is a Moon 280d.   Cabling is Nordost except for the power cords to the amps which I built myself and which really did make a very marked difference- more bass and presence than before with stock cords.
Both the dac and preamp are very good in their own right so changing either to get a significant upgrade along the lines I described above rather than a sideways step isn't going to be easy.   So I am interested in any advice and thoughts from fellow audiogoners.

Here is a brief description of how my system evolved.  I was originally driving the Thiels with Mac MA7000 integrated- the power amp section is basically a hot-rodded ma252.  The first upgrade I decided to try was to bypass the preamp section with the Prima Luna and that was a revelation. The sound was transformed.   Then I started doing research on a replacement for the Mac altogether.  It took me a long time and I considered a lot of options.  What put me on the path to the Pass Labs was the suggestion from a friend, an electrical engineer that is also passionate about audio, that I take a look at a Luxman class A amp.  I had never really considered this option as the Thiels are not easy to drive but as my friend pointed out the issue would not be the watts as the Thiels are 90db but the power supply which needs to feed an impedance load that does dip below 3 Ohms across a significant portion of the frequency spectrum.   Anyway, I wasn't able to find a Luxman at my budget and it was than I got the suggestion to consider Pass- the xa30.8.  I was intrigued and called Pass and had a long conversation with them and they indeed are very familiar with the Thiels- and they too confirmed that their amps would have no problem driving them.   Anyway, just as I was mullling this over a pair of xa60.5's came up at a good price from a great a'goner and so I went ahead with that.  And btw, I have heard some suggest that Pass does not deal well with low impedance loads- it is simply not the case- not at all in fact and the proof is in the pudding: the Thiels sound GREAT.

Anyway, any suggestions and advice would be great.

Many thx as always!
pgastone
frozentundra
207 posts
 
Good choice;

I had Thiel & converted to a Revel Studio 2. Thiel really is persnickety of electronics 

Pass brings big bass to Thiels ! 
Great resolution , but no glare 
I found Pass SS preamps to much resolution and clarity

I went with a CJ Tube Preamp and rolled tubes to get the soundstage @ depth & TUNE the sound you want 

SS power & Tube Pre is the way to go 
TONE audio magazine really promote’s the ss/Tube combo’s 

now, Throw a sub in and WOW 

my experiences say ; you are going the right way !

jeff
soix
9,456 posts
 
I have to disagree with @frozentundra -- a CJ preamp will probably just get you more of what the PrimaLuna pre is giving you now.  Not that CJ isn't GREAT gear, but for what you're looking for in the context of your system, Bryson or Pass will get you more of soecifically what you're looking for.  CJ will just add more of the same. 
tricon_dave
96 posts
 
I am using a Pass X250.8 amp with my Sonus Faber Amati Futuras.  I was looking for more detail, dynamics and bass slam.  I replaced a Doshi Audio full function tube preamp with a Pass XP22 line stage preamp and XP17 phono stage.  Before the Doshi, I had an Audio Research Ref 5 and Naim Superline phono stage.  I found the Doshi to be better than the Audio Research/Naim combo, but the Pass gear has taken my system exactly in the direction I was hoping for.  Great bass, actually surprising at times with real slam (something my speakers aren't known for).  Beautiful midrange with plenty of detail, strong imaging, and maximal differentiation of voices and instruments.  The treble is also better with more detail, spatial cues, and extension.  

Overall the Pass gear seems to match synergistically.  This is the first configuration I've had in 25 years without tubes somewhere in the chain.  The only thing I'm missing versus tube preamps is the "bloom" around notes...that unique ability of tubes to hang notes in the air with a more natural decay.  

As I look back on my (many) system configurations, it seems that when I go with one manufacturer the synergy seems to be special.  This includes systems made up of preamps and amps from Lamm, Audio Research, Doshi, Rogue, and McIntosh.  I have the same approach to cabling, with Transparent Reference in the system from phono to power cords.  While its fun to mix and match to tune the sound, my experience has been the most enjoyable systems are based on electronics from one manufacturer.  
While the XP22 may be out of your price range, the XP12 comes close in sound quality from what I understand.  Call Mark Semet at Reno HiFi or Kent at Pass.  Both are great guys to work with and will be very honest with you according to your needs.  

Good luck and have fun!
tricon_dave
96 posts
 
One more thing, the Pass gear is absolutely dead quiet, something I have never experienced with even the best tube gear.  
pgastone OP
79 posts
 
My apologies it has taken so long to respond but I was traveling and just got back.   Thank you all for the very helpful suggestions- this has given me a lot to think about and in directions I had not quite considered.

Like frozentundra I had pursued the idea of using tubes with solid state amplification.  I have always loved tubes and prior to current set-up I was using a Mastersound Compact 845 single ended triode integrated with Zu Druids IV and then with Focal Micro Utopia's BE: and in both cases the sound was superb albeit different (I still own all of them which is ridiculous, I know).  But neither set-up is comparable to what I have currently.   All this is just to say that, like tricon_dave, tubes were always part of the various set-ups (I guess with the brief exception when the Mac 7000 was being used standalone).

Based on what I have read so far in order to get those spatial cues and thus greater dimensionality and depth, I should start considering a solid state preamp.  And I never really considered Pass so I am looking into this as well as some the other suggestions.

My only concern is that the Thiels can be a tad hot in the upper frequencies and I always thought tubes might be a better match- but maybe not.   In terms of the current Prima Luna preamp I had thought that a tube preamp with better capacitors and a "cleaner" volume control might do the trick.  An interesting compromise might be a BHK preamp- what do you think?  

That said, I am very intrigued by the idea of trying all pass set-up- maybe an XP12 or an older XP20.

Anyway, the posts have been great and I am interested in hearing more as I continue to do research.


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