Why the fascination with subwoofers?


I have noticed many posts with questions about adding subwoofers to an audio system. Why the fascination with subwoofers? I guess I understand why any audiophile would want to hear more tight bass in their audio system, but why add a subwoofer to an existing audio system when they don’t always perform well, are costly, and are difficult to integrate with the many varied speakers offered. Additionally, why wouldn’t any audiophile first choose a speaker with a well designed bass driver designed, engineered and BUILT INTO that same cabinet? If anyone’s speakers were not giving enough tight bass, why wouldn’t that person sell those speakers and buy a pair that does have tight bass?
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@rauliruegas wrote, about the AudioKinesis Swarm:

"For a 10" woofer (as the four subs array posted here. ) is almost imposible to handled frequencies below 20hz at over 100dbs ( SPL. ) and with low THD kind of distortion."

I didn’t design the Swarm to go below 20 Hz, but several customers who have measured the in-room response report -3 dB in the upper teens. For deepest loudest bass at the same price point (three grand for the system), a single monster sub is the way to go. I have designed a Swarm that can do well over 120 dB at 13 Hz, but it’s not very practical and I don’t think there would be much market for it.

Each individual 10" Swarm unit can do about 100 dB at 20 Hz in-room at one meter without approaching x-max or amplifier clipping, assuming "typical" boundary reinforcement. I don’t know what the THD number would be, as imo that’s not a problem that needs solving.  The in-room frequency response is of vastly greater audible consequence as long as neither woofer nor amp is driven beyond its linear limits.

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My fascination with subs dates back about twenty-five years, to my simultaneous fascination with Quads and music with bass.

Duke

@audiokinesis 
Duke, great to see you join!

Would like to ask your point of view about time alignment for subs. I run an active system with digital crossovers, time alignment, room correction. I currently have two sealed 12" Rythmiks playing summed up mono and planning to add one or two more to get a distributed bass array.

Time alignment is of great value and active systems are ideal for this. But when it comes to a distributed bass array the sound is arriving at the mic from 3 or 4 different locations so difficult to identify "the max" in the pulse. At the same time Earl Geddes (who also proposes 3 or 4 subs in DBA) and others say we can only hear those frequencies after several cycles have played, so the pulse behavior might not be a good indicator.

What is your point of view about time alignment of a SWARM or other DBA systems?

Regards
Dear @atmasphere: The main thread subject is about bass management, so I will answer to you on the tigth regards for last time:

I'm not speculating nothing, I never do. I was very clear that we have ( is a must to. ) to have several experiences in different venues and with different kind of MUSIC in live events seated at near field position and it's from here from came my " speculations ". Rodman, bdp and noble explained very well. 

Period about.

R.

Hi @lewinskih01, you asked, "What is your point of view about time alignment of a SWARM or other DBA systems?"

Imo time alignment is at best a secondary consideration in a distributed multi-sub system, from a perceptual standpoint.

The ear has very poor time-domain resolution at low frequencies, and you are aware of Geddes’ thinking on the subject (which is based on AES papers). On the other hand the ear is very good at hearing loudness differences at low frequencies once the low frequencies become loud enough to be audible. This is why equal-loudness curves bunch up south of 100 Hz. A 5 dB difference at 40 Hz can be perceptually as big a difference as a 10 dB change at 1 kHz! The implication is that getting the in-room frequency response right matters more.

Also, since speakers + room = a minimum phase system at low frequencies, when we fix the frequency domain we have also fixed the time domain, and vice-versa.

That being said, imo you bring up something which intuitively makes sense: Preserving the initial pulse of bass energy, that which "whaps" you. It would seem that precise alignment of the arrival of the energy from multiple subs would best support that initial impulse, but how precise is "precise"? Within 1/4 wavelength? According to a paper I read, the ear cannot even detect the presence of bass energy from less than one wavelength, so the "precision" required might not be as great as our intuition would lead us to believe.

This is just anecdotal, but every time I have reversed the polarity of one of the four subs in a Swarm system, there as been a subjective improvement, despite the fact that the initial pulse has been obviously degraded.

This past October at RMAF an industry veteran manufacturer with decades of experience came into our room and played his reference recording of Fanfare for the Common Man. He said, "that’s what a tympani sounds like." He went on to say that our system (in a normal hotel room) did the best he had yet heard on that recording. We were using two amps and had manipulated the phase of the two left-side subs relative to the two right-side subs.

Now it is theoretically possible to use four time-aligned and equalized channels of amplification and achieve precise time alignment and excellent in-room response smoothness simultaneously, and this would probably be even better. But at the price point I’m working, focusing on room-interaction related issues seems to give good return on investment.

Once we relax cost constraints, it might make more sense to build a planar array into the front wall and a corresponding array into the rear wall, reverse the polarity of the rear wall array, and time-delay it such that it cancels the signal from the front wall when it arrives.

Duke

Dear @audiokinesis : "" I didn’t design the Swarm to go below 20 Hz """

of course you did not and certainly not at your market price. I’m not with an attitude to make a critic or something against your product what I’m doing is to post some facts for the people really know where are " seated ".

As you I have more than 25 years with the " fascination " subs ideas because is a true fascination when you are " there ". I’m a simple music lover and audiophile.

The people that own your product could think they are " there " but in reality they are not yet.

The true and complete room/system bass management premise is that the audio system can handled bass frequencies below 20hz at real/live event SPL with lower THD we can achieve in our room/system ( other day we can talk about the importance of that THD. ) and to accomplish that we need self powered true subwoofers and we not necessarily need 4 subs we can do it with two true subs. The Harman white papers proves that.
Of course that if we are not satisfied with those two true subs in our room/system then we can go for the 4 solution.

My target is to have the best solution ( rigth now with two true subs. ) at one and only one seat position where the mids and higs are spot on.

There are alot of very valuable music information below 20hz in hundred/thousands of recordings and we can enjoy it in all its splendor if we have the system for reproduce it.

The differences between a quasi-bass management against a true bass management is not little or tiny but higher that what any one of us can imagine. We have to experienced to understand it.

Now all those gentlemans that already has the four not true subs only have to change it for true subs where maybe they will not needs 4 but only 2 but this depends of the room/system, which true subs were choosed and eacvh one of us targets.

I understand the " fascination " that have your customers that are living with and they already think they discovery the bass " panacea " when it’s not that way. They are close to that panacea but needs to " work " to achieve it.

So, my posts were not a true critic or something against to, not at all. Only facts.

Btw, I take a look in your site and I don’t find out which are the 3 +,- db points in those 10" units. Could you share it?. Appreciated.

Only for your records: I bougth my ADS L2030 ( that was not and stritly massive market product because was not designed for consummer market. ) many many years ago and when I was absolutely ig norant about bass management and its importance and with out knew nothing about the Harman papers. I bougth it in Laredo,Tx. because the vendor convince me about and because in those old times we can seen ADS advertasing in all audio magazynes as High Fidelity, Stereo Review or Audio.

Well these sealed/acoustic suspension ADS design between other drivers has two 14" woofers and line source for the mids/higs and its bass specs at 3 +,- db are: 22hz and 18hz at 5+,- db an 16hz +,- 4 db bi-amp fashion using its dedicated active C2000 crossover that I owned and I think still own.

Well, ADS was choosed ( with out knowing for my self any information about this.) by Telarc for monitoring all the Telarc recordings and the first recordings Telarc used ADS speakers designed exclusively for them and powered by Threshold. Latter on Telarc ask to ADS for a better full rage professional monitor and was then when ADS designed the L2030 that was runned in bi-amp fashion with the C2000 and Threshold electronics. The man behind the desin of ADS L2030 speakers was Mr.Kelly whom rigth after this his  last ADS speaker design ( he was the engenner in chief in ADS. )  founded the very well regarded Aerial Acoustic that between other things has true subs in its catalog line.

Well, even all  those at some time of my audio life all was not enough for me and I started with subs till today where my self heavy up-graded L2030 works as satellite speakers in my room/system.

I post this history because no matters how low the speakers goes if are passive design always will be a huge benefits integrating to those speakers with two true self powered subs.

The subs market development and growing is just starting because from a few years now audiophiles are starting to learn that true subs are not for HT but for a stereo system in our places. So the best on regards is forth coming and this is a very good news for we audiophiles and people like you that are manufacturers and good designers.

Good to know you and meet you here.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOPT DISTORTIONS,
R.