Why the fascination with subwoofers?

Dear @phusis  : I concur with what you posted because those were and are my first hand experiences in my room/sysrtem for several years now.


Through those experiences I decided to in 2005 to post this thread ( I already postyed here but you don't read it, here again. ) that goes/coincide with your takes in the overall bass subject:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer/post?postid=310058#310058


Btw, the planar speakers develops too Inter Modulation Distortions and are benefitiated by those subs and the high-pass filter. No matters what.

The planar owners must test it before post it does not works because this is the idea they have. I posted the link og those Apogee The grand speakers that says it works and I have first hand experiences with the top of the line big and great sounding Soundlabs with and with out that high-pass XO and difference is for the better through that XO. But is up to flat speakers owners. 


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Hello phusis,

     Your post brought up many good points and I believe most come down to your personal preferences being different from mine.
     I think we both agree that the 4-sub distributed bass array (DBA) concept is something that works incredibly well in virtually any room and with any set of main speakers, even fast speakers such as planar-magnetic and electrostatic panels.  I think this is bourn out by the fact that we both use them in our own systems.
     All DBA systems will provide accurate, detailed, smooth and natural bass that has an effortless quality to it.  But I consider the DBA concept to be an especially elegant bass system solution because of its scalability and flexibility that allows for customization based on personal preferences. 
     DBA's are scalable mainly by the choice of the 4 subs utilized.  I use the relatively small subs standard with the AK Debra DBA system that have a 1 sq ft footprint, are about 2 feet tall and contain 10" drivers.  Although this provides bass response in my room that's flat down to 20 Hz it's not quite able to reproduce the entire lowest octave of 16-32 Hz but this bass response has plenty of power, impact, extension and dynamics on music and ht for my preferences.  Others who may have a preference for more bass power, impact, dynamics and sufficient bass extension to reproduce the entire lowest octave have the option to choose subs that are as powerful, extended, expensive and large as they prefer or can talk their spouses into.
    DBA system's are flexible mainly by the choice of system settings such as the crossover frequency, whether the main speakers are run full-range or restricted and the overall bass system volume relative to the main  speakers.  I prefer setting the crossover as low as possible, typically in the 40-50 Hz range, because I run my main speakers full-range, they only have accurate bass extension down to  36 Hz, I find the bass sounds better integrated when the subs only engage when the content requires it and I perceive the bass as boosted overall when the crossover is set much higher.  
      You've stated you prefer setting your crossover at 80 Hz and using a high quality digital xover to restrict the bass output of your main speakers. This not only demonstrates the flexibility of DBA systems but allows other significant benefits as well that you detailed.  I understand your point about perceiving the bass in your system as still natural and well integrated even at your much higher 80 Hz crossover.  Perhaps it could be we just differ a bit in how we perceive moderately deep bass as it approaches  frequencies that we're able to discern where the bass is coming from.  But the DBA flexibility still applies since we're both just using the available DBA settings to attain the system performance and other benefits that we enjoy and prefer in our systems. 

      The overall DBA system volume relative to the volume of the main speakers volume is another important setting that allows significant flexibility.  I prefer a bass system volume that is slightly less than half volume on the sub amp which allows the deep bass to be independently powerful, detailed and dynamic while still integrating well with the mid-range and treble of the main speakers as the overall volume level is varied from soft to loud.  
     But like you, I'm not adverse to increasing the relative bass system volume on certain Blu-ray movies or even some music.  Just our personal preferences easily catered to by the flexibility of our DBA systems,right?

Tim

Dear @noble100 : """ All DBA systems will provide accurate, detailed, smooth and natural bass that has an effortless quality to it. """

as can do it non DBA subs system. As you said maybe a different way " to see things " but DBA is not the only or best option. Clearly is for you and other gentlemans but exist other very good alternatives to it.

Not only you but other audiophiles are running their passive main speakers in its full range way and I can’t understand yet why what @phusis and before him me posted here and in other related subs threads ( at least me. ) the main critical advantage when any one integrates two or more subs to his system using a high-pass filter that permits to put at minimum the main speakers IMD kind of distortions.

The rewards doing that with passive speakers is not some thing tiny, no it’s more significant perhaps that to have those additional low bass octaves. Of course that we can understand it only when we have that experience.

I posted in that linked thread that my main discovery when I integrated my subs to my system ( where my main speakers goes down to 16hz. ) was the overall " impact " that was developed by lowering the main speakers IMD kind of distortions. Yes I know your targets are different from pussin or mines but you must try it in some future time and if you test it then the XO point can be at around 80hz and subs wired in true stereo fashion.

I think that we can’t diminsh the IMD developed distortions by the main speakers no matters what if I was you at least I will try and if you don’t like it then always come back at the original status.

Normally the owners of planar type speakers are " against " to run the main speakers as a " satellite " one that is the " rigth " way to go ( for me. ) because that high-pass filter makes a paramount difference.

Yes, my high-pass filter is inside my 20.6s amplifiers where I don’t need to use any kind of external active/passive XO due that my amps are coupled by small caps.

Anyway is up to each one of us, only an opinion that can improve our daily MUSIC pleasure.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @noble100  : I did not knew which is the crossover frequencies in your 2.7qr and now I find out:

Low-Pass 12dB/octave @ 650Hz

Band-Pass 6dB/octave @ 500Hz-950Hz

those " numbers "  makes me to tell you it's almost and " emergency " and your speakers are " shouting " for that high-pass filter ! !

Rigth now you have good bass and you can have an exceptional mid/high ranges in your system adding that high-pass filter.

IMHO it's a must that you do it because the IMD distortion levels is to high and in a very wide range up to over 900hz. It's a serious compromise to leave it that way.
A compromise is that you can have a better  quality " equilibrum " with your bass range if you can achieve better quality levels in the mid/high frequency ranges. As I said before is up to each one of us.

Btw:   you said that the CD's and other digital sources you own/use does not goes below 20hz. Maybe you are rigth but always exist a dude because your system does not have the ability to shows you if in reality goes only to 20hz or below it.

R.

rauliruegas:
"Dear @noble100 : """ All DBA systems will provide accurate, detailed, smooth and natural bass that has an effortless quality to it. """

as can do it non DBA subs system. As you said maybe a different way " to see things " but DBA is not the only or best option. Clearly is for you and other gentlemans but exist other very good alternatives to it."

Hello rauliruegas,

     Yes, it's definitely possible to attain very good bass response using 1 or 2 subs.  As we've discussed previously, this is a bit of a compromise since the 1 or 2 subs need to be precisely positioned in the room to optimize the bass response perceived at a single dedicated listening position.
      This specific sub positioning process for 1 or 2 subs restricts good bass response to the immediate vicinity of the dedicated listening seat and, by necessity, results in much poorer bass response at many other areas of the room.  However, some individuals require good bass response at more than just a single listening position and a 4-sub DBA system is an excellent method to achieve good bass response not only at the dedicated listening seat but also throughout the entire room.

rauliruegas: "Normally the owners of planar type speakers are " against " to run the main speakers as a " satellite " one that is the " right " way to go ( for me. ) because that high-pass filter makes a paramount difference."

     I completely agree with you that one of the major benefits of adding subs, and running the main speakers as satellites, is that it frees the main speakers and their amp from reproducing the bass frequencies which results in less speaker distortion and reduces the demands on the amp.
     In my system, I've tried both configurations of running my planar panel mains full-range and with my mains as satellites with their low frequencies filtered out by the sub amp supplied with the Audio Kinesis Debra DBA system,  This amp has a L/R high pass outputs for sending frequencies above the bass crossover setting to the main speakers amps.
     I thought my system sounded best with the main speakers running full-range. The mid-range and treble range sounded very similar to me with both configurations but I did notice the bass range sounded more detailed and more dynamic with my mains running full-range.  
     I do have some thoughts about why I didn't discern improvements in the mid-range/treble range using the 'satellite method' as expected and as you have in your system.  I'm uncertain of the quality level of the high pass filtering being done in the sub amp.  But since I was unable to discern any differences in the midrange/treble response range between full-range and the satellite methods, I can only conclude that the filtering quality level is not an issue.  
     Also, any sonic gains expected from the reduction on bass frequency amplification demands on the main speakers amps may not have been realized since these mono-block amps are not lacking in power ( 1,200 w into the speakers 4 ohm load).  Another possibility is the Magnepan 2.7QR main speakers I use as mains.  These are 3-way planar panels that have rather large bass sections which provide very high quality bass on their own but that lack deep bass impact.  Perhaps the improved bass response I noticed with running the mains full range is a result of the very high quality and articulate bass of my mains combined with the increased impact and dynamics provided by the AK Debra DBA system.
      I think both our systems are just practical proof that there's several options available for achieving high quality bass response using subs.

Tim