System synergies: Chaotic or predictable?

Well its a lot more predictable than chaotic, at least in the sense you combine a bunch of lean, analytical sounding components together if there was chaos then it would at least every once in a while sound pretty good. Instead of always sounding just as predictably lean and analytical as you would expect.

This has always been true and so to me "synergy" has always been something reserved more for things like speakers and amps or cartridges and phono stages, you know things that actually interact. As opposed to something like a power cord or speaker cable or interconnect that is going to sound the same no matter what system you put it in.

That last one of course will trigger the usual suspects. As intended. Because they ought well to be triggered. As the first step in disabusing themselves of such nonsensical notions. Which they ought well to do, for their own good if not out of consideration for all those they might lead astray.

You are right to be suspicious of the tone control or what I like to call band-aid approach to system "matching". This is as popular as it is self-defeating. 

Every good power cord, interconnect, speaker cable, amp, phono stage, turntable, cartridge, you name it, that sounds really good in my system has also sounded really good everywhere else its been tried. Well, duh! That's because they're good! The crap that's not good, of course its only gonna be tolerable in certain setups- ones complimentarily flawed!

That doesn't make it "good" and neither is it "synergy" its just one set of flaws sort of compensating for another.

Sorry Millercarbon but totally disagree with you on if it is good here it will be good elsewhere.

On one demo we compared AQ cables from the Fire, Wind, Water series vs the comparable models from Wireworld, Platinum, Gold and Silver Eclipse, and the differences between the two cable lines was very audible as families of sound with discernable differences between models on the same system. 

These differences were heard by two different clients who were at the shop as well as by us and no one was there for a cable demo. 

In terms of things that interact all things interact, yes there are things that sound good in all systems, we do recommend both Isotek or Audio Magic power conditioners and we have tested many different ones, vs Audience, Running Springs, AQ, Shunyata, and Synergistic to name a few and they all did differnt things and brought out different strengths and weakness.

We have found that amplifier can totally change the sound of a set of speakers, same with digital, cables etc. 

Synergies are figured out by most dealers by trying diffent combinations of products until they come up with a system that they feel is really good.

Over the years there have been tons of combinations that dealers figured out worked together, the Ayre, Vandersteen, AQ system, the Spectral, Mit, Avalon setups of the 90's. For us the Paradigm Persona T+A combo.

So yes it is chaotic up to a point when you listen to gear and compare different products you will figure out what the family of sound is.

You have an Ifi DSD Pro the sound of that dac is warm and liquid no matter the filter, vs a Lumin or a Mytek dac which sounds cleaner and leaner.

So if you have a bright pair of speakers a warmer tube based dac is going to be a good match, vs a wamer speaker such as a Vandersteen or a Harbeth where brighter digital such as Mytek would be a better choice to compensate for that warmth that a speaker makes. 

The system that you eventually bought was a combination of components that you found that worked well synergistically.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

When I had a Classe preamp, I auditioned an Classe amp. The combination was great. That made me think that there can be an advantage to trying the preamp and amp from the same company.

Yes Mike but other times not the case. Many years ago at SBS the combination of a Cat preamplifier plus a Vac amplifier was the amazing pairing. The CAT amplifiers altough they were expensive didn’t have the drive that the VAC amplifiers did and the VAC Renissance amplifiers driving the Wilson WP 3/2 or the 5 was just magical.

So just because you have an expensive power amp and preamplifier combo from the same company doesn’t mean that combination will work wonders all the time.

Some of the worst systems were made up of the same companies amp, preamp and cd player and or dac. Sometimes those systems sounded great. The all Krell systems of the 90’s for example the Krell amp and preamps were good, but you could find a more magical front end with the EAD dacs or the Audio Notes coupled with the same Krell gear.

Why because sometimes too much of one companies sound is too much in one direction.

For example: a clean sounding solid state like a Krell or a Levinson of yore type of amplifier, combined with a clean sounding solid state preamplifier, plus a clean sounding transistor based digital front end, plus clean detailed loudspeakers with metal or ribbon tweeters, the sound of that system will not be involving, you will hear everything but without any sense of warmth or body to the sound.

So in this scenario you would want to revoice the system with perhaps a warmer tube preamplifer, or a warmer tube or tube like digital front end.

Sometimes the combination of a companies amp and preamplifier does indeed sound better, Luxman and Luxman works well, T+A amp and preamp works well for example

We sold Bryston the 4B sst 2 series the last ones, and the Bryston amp plus the Bryston preamp the BP 26 was awful, howerver, change the Bryston preamplifier to a Conrad Johnson and the combo was magical as the Bryston power amplifer was clean, punchy, and had great bass control and when warmed up with a tube preamplifier the sound became much more involving.

We have sold BAT tube preamplifiers with Krell and Chord amplifiers and again that combo was great, same with a CJ GAT preamp and a Chord power amplifier.

So you actually have to audition the companies preamp and amplifier together with your intended speakers and then try a different preamplifier such as a tube CJ, or Backert, etc and see if the combination works wonders.

We have a Manley Labs 300B preamplifier and boy does that preamplifier make many a solid state amplifier sound fantastic, we have sold that preamplifier with the Electrcompaniet AW 250 and the sound is far superior than the matching Electrocomapniet preamplifier.

So the moral of the story is that you have to play and experiement until the system sounds the way you want it to. This does require more work but usally you will be rewarded with a much more captivating sound system.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

"Chaotic" is a poor descriptor, imo inappropriately applied to audio systems.  HiFi is not regimented like an army drill Corp, but neither is it a riotous mob. Lines form well at most venues predictably,  and audio systems are the same. When you work with gear enough and build hundreds of systems you know generally how it will sound. Much of it is dictated by the type of speaker and amplifier.  

The question was, can a person know how an unfamiliar system will sound? My answer is yes, if the listener has enough e perience,, and not in an absolute way, but generally. I does leave room for a surprise,  but seldom.