Capacitor as Crossover for High Pass?


Hello,

Please excuse my ignorance here. I have read various opinions on the use of either passive or electronic (active) crossovers, or both, in the forum. Hoping I can get some advice on the following and if what I'm planning makes sense.

I have a pair of satellites and my thoughts are to add a pair of bass panels for the lower frequencies. I will be bi-amping (SET tube for sats and SS for bass panels). My thoughts are to use a passive crossover (high quality capacitor) for the high pass to the satellites and an electronic crossover for the low pass to the bass panels.

If someone could please tell me, if I do install a capacitor as the high pass, where is the capacitor installed? Between the amp and speaker, between the pre and amp? Also, how do I affix the capacitior to either the speaker cable or the amplifier? Is the capicitor housed within an enclosure of some type?

Thank you very much for any help you could give and if I'm off my rocker please let me know.

Best Regards,

Lee V.
hvowell
Putting a capacitor between the SET amp and the satellite speakers is not a good idea, for at least two reasons.

First, for frequencies below the point where the capacitor's impedance (capacitive reactance) becomes negligible, variations in the satellite speaker's impedance vs. frequency curve would interact with the capacitive reactance to produce an irregular overall frequency response.

Second, putting the capacitor at that point would force the SET amp to have to swing voltages corresponding to the full-range signal, including the deep bass components. If the satellites have sensitivity that is not substantially greater than the sensitivity of the bass panels, that would mean that much of the power capability of the SS amp would not be usable, because if you turned the volume up so as to utilize that capability you would clip the SET amp.

You might still have that same problem, although to a lesser degree, if you put the cap between preamp and power amp. The first-order (6db/octave) rolloff that the cap would provide would still result in significant bass energy being put through the SET amp.

To be more specific than that we would have to know the sensitivities of the speakers, and the power ratings of the amps you are considering.

Additional issues that you would have to deal with are gain matching (taking into account differences in sensitivity between the bass panels and the satellites), and matching of the crossover slopes (you would probably want to set the electronic crossover slope to also be 6db/octave).

It seems to me that the most sensible approach would be an electronic crossover for both the high pass and low pass functions. Among other advantages, that would give you the flexibility to choose sharper crossover slopes, and thereby keep more of the bass content out of the SET amp.

If you still want to use a cap for the high pass function, I would suggest putting it (actually them, for two channels) into a small metal enclosure together with rca jacks for input and output connections.

Regards,
-- Al
Al,

Thank you Al. It makes sense. Not sure why I've read comments that running the satellites through an electronic crossover has a detrimental effect, while it is OK on the woofers/subs? I guess it would be not having to use an additional cable and the cross-over? For the electronic crossover I was considering the Behringer to get things set and then replace with a Marchand? (or is the Behinger good)?

Also hope I was using the right terminology. I was looking for the satellites to take care of somewhere between 125-150HZ and up. If I was to use a capacitor to roll off the frequencies below say 125HZ not sure what frequency I would be shooting for with the capacitor. Would the capacitor have a 6db slope?

Just a bit more info if I may.

The sats are tested at 91db, 5-10 ohms between 100HZ and 25KHZ and the bass panels would be, still looking for them, approx 87db 4 ohms. The amps for the sats are 24 watt PP SETs, while the amps for the panels would be SS about 400-500 watts. The sats go down to 55HZ. Not sure what it is down by at that frequency. -6db? Also, the room is not large 15x19, but pretty much dedicated to 2 channel listening.

I understand that the electronic crossover would let me set the crossover freq, volume and phase. My thought was to crossover at 125-150HZ, with a high slope 36db? (Not sure until you try I guess) The satellites would be in front of the bass panels, so I would need to be able to adjust the phase.

Thanks again,

Lee
Not sure why I've read comments that running the satellites through an electronic crossover has a detrimental effect, while it is OK on the woofers/subs? I guess it would be not having to use an additional cable and the cross-over?
I would imagine so, particularly with respect to the electronic crossover. Any sonic degradation or artifacts it might introduce would figure to be more significant if they affected the mid-range (and adjacent) frequencies, as opposed to just the low bass.
Would the capacitor have a 6db slope?
Yes. If placed between preamp and SET amp, the high pass filter would be comprised of the capacitor and the input impedance of the SET amp, which presumably is essentially resistive at audio frequencies. An RC filter has a slope of 6db/octave once you get beyond the point at which it is 3db down (that point being referred to as the 3db bandwidth). So if you set the 3db bandwidth (which in this context is the same as the "crossover frequency") to 150Hz, then at 75Hz it would be down 9db relative to the upper bass, the mid-range, and the treble, and at 37.5Hz it would be down 15db.

You would calculate the required capacitance by using the formula for capacitive reactance (impedance), Xc = 1/(2 x pi x F x C). The 3db bandwidth point would occur when Xc equals the input impedance of the amp. So you would substitute the value of that impedance (which might be perhaps 50,000 or 100,000 ohms) for Xc, set F equal to the desired crossover frequency, and re-arrange the equation to calculate C. If you use units of ohms and Hertz, the calculated C will be in Farads, so multiply the answer by a million to get microFarads (uF).

The specs you provided for the amps and speakers seem generally reasonable, but I still have a concern about the disparity in power between the two amps. A 400W amp driving 87db panels will be able to play about 8db louder than a 24W amp driving 91db speakers, which is a substantial difference. Even with an electronic crossover and a sharp rolloff, I think you might find yourself unable to use perhaps 1/2 or more of those 400 watts without clipping the SET amp. (I'm assuming the 87 db figure is for 1W input and at 1m, not 2.83V input and at 1m. Given the 4 ohm impedance, if the 87db is based on 2.83V, that corresponds to 2 watts, or 84db/1W/1m, which would reduce the concern).

Together with the fact that the satellites are reasonably sensitive, and the room is not large, that would seem to suggest (assuming 87db/1W/1m) that perhaps a 200 or 250W SS amp (into 4 ohms) would be a more appropriate choice.

I have no particular knowledge of the quality of the Behringer or Marchand (or other) electronic crossovers. But having the flexibility to adjust the crossover slopes over a wide range, as you mentioned, would certainly seem to be desirable.

Best regards,
-- Al