Searching for matching(?) Subwoofer solution

Dear @cleeds   @noble100  @hleeid : Atmasphere that has first hand experiences on the overall recording proccess posted in other thread what oput true ligth on that mono/stereo subs issue:

"""  Its not so much the limitations of the format as it costs a lot of money to pay an engineer to work a way around "out of phase bass". If you spend the time with the recording, you can usually find a way to master it without having to process it. But that takes time and at $500/hour most often bass processing is used. This is a simple circuit that senses when bass is out of phase and makes it mono below about 80Hz for a few milliseconds until the event has passed. This makes mastering LPs less expensive!
But CDs do exist where out of phase bass exists. This can happen because a microphone is out of phase with the rest of the recording when a bass guitar or bass drum is recorded. For this reason, the recording engineer has a phase inversion switch on every channel of his mixer but he may not have thought to use them.

If the recording is done in its entirety with only two mics, out of phase bass will not exist.  """

In the other side we can think that we can't be aware the direction where are generated  fundamental frequencies as low of 40hz-20hz or even lower.

Well certainly not through our ears but a human been not only hear through the ears but from all body: ears, skin, bones, skin hairs, head hair and the like. The skin hairs are truly sensitive to very low bass frequency and we have a fenomenal transducer name it brain.
So we can be totally sure we can't identify direction of very low bass frequencies.

Now, I read through the AK site the quality myths about low bass range and I disagree with.

When we are talking of two channels system MUSIC dedicated listen quality of the subs drivers and the overall subs design is way important because MUSIC start with the fundamental frequency but what we really listen is where MUSIC belongs that are the harmonics of that fundamental frequency/note and those harmonics will be developed with the quality level depending of the quality level of the fundamental note reproduced by the susb.
Harmonics are what put the color and rythm in live MUSIC and home systems. As better quaklty be the subs as better will be the room/system experiences we have.

The first 3-4 harmonics are the ones due its SPLs the ones normally we can listen but the 7-8 or even up harmonics puts some kind of small/tiny " colorations " to what we are perceiving.

So we can't disgard the quality of the subs. Not all drivers and driver materials has the same qualiity level that's why manufacturers choose diffrenet build materials from different metalic ones to kevlar or puilp-paper. Obviously that the amp and crossover electronic quality design and quality parts are very important too.

In a two channels MUSIC only normally we are looking for quality  because the main speakers have a high quality levels and if the harmonics developed by the subs are not at same quality level then we can't really enjoy the listening experiences.

@hleeid  , first determine where you can get the best ubication for your speakers through listening tests. Where do you achieve the best listening experiences in the mid/high frequency range? and after that it will be more easy to find out ( by tyesting it. ) the two self powered subs you need.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Finger mistake: "" So we can be totally sure we can’t identify direction of very low bass frequencies. """

must says:

We can’t be totally sure we can’t identify source direction of very low bass frequency range .

Additional to what I posted we have to remember that our body/skind body is full  ( by mm2. ) of nervous terminations that not only sense temperature or pain but SPLs level too and are really sensible about.

R.

Dear @noble100 : After reading your last post that I was unaware of I only can say that you are incredible?/terrible man, because before your post you posted to me:

" that I agree with you and then request you just cut it out. ""

even that the OP already posted he use his system only for MUSIC two chnnels experiences you insist in that the best " room bass response " ( 4 subs. ) when what the OP needs is only good bass response at one seat position, nothing else. Got it?

You posted in reference to other gentleman:

""" disregarding his entire post
He obviously lacks the knowledge and experience required to be giving good information or advice to anyone about attaining good in-room bass response performance .... """

I proved with your own statements/words that you neither has that knowledge levels you think you have but even that fact you diminished the opinion of that gentleman. Go figure ! ! !

Again, even the AK designer/owner from where came your 4 bass array configuration posted in this same forum that two subs for two channel stereo MUSIC are ENOUGH. But you follow/insist entilted in : " one solution good for all " and you ask for I cut about ! ? ! ? ! ? and till now you just do not understand why quality subs levels is so critical/vital to listen MUSIC ONLY ( not HT as you. ) in two channels room system at one seat position to blend to the mid/high one position frequency ranges.

QUALITY not quantity as you like. QUALITY QUALITY QUALITY , tha’s the name of the game. You are totally wrong not only because your 4 bass array but because you are accustomed to very very low quality levels in your room/system.

First learn and listen to room/system with top quality performance levels before following making posts with your true bs information.

Maybe you have some personal limitations that preclude your understanding about. Sorry for you.

R.

Hello rauliruegas,

     Regarding bass phase and recordings not done with only 2 mics or CDs with out of phase bass, my opinion is that we really have no control over that and can't do anything about it except avoid listening to poorly recorded music content.

     Regarding whether we can localize bass under 80 Hz using our ears and brains or any other body parts, I know I can often feel sharp 55 Hz strikes on a kick drum with my body but it doesn't inform me where it came from within my system soundstage. I believe I perceive the kick drum, that I can feel and hear, as being located in the rear center of my system soundstage because of the higher frequency harmonics/overtones of the 55 Hz fundamental tone, that reach above 80 Hz that we are able to localize, and our brains are able to relate or associate them to the fundamental tone of the kick drum strike and determine its location within my system soundstage.  In other words, we are only able to localize fundamental bass tones with frequencies below 80 Hz if the harmonics/overtones related to that fundamental deep bass tone that are above 80 Hz are also heard, usually through both of our main speakers.
     I understand this is a complex thought to convey and I hope you understand what I wrote.
     I don't consider this true stereo deep bass but rather what I've termed Psychoacoustic Phenomenon Psuedo Stereo Deep Bass.

    I agree with you that using better quality subs will only improve the quality of bass reproduced.  I think this is true whether one uses a single sub or multiple subs.

Tim

@rauliruegas wrote:
" Even the AK SWARM manufacturer/owner posted in this forum:

""" You can get good bass in one sweet spot with two equalized subs """. Not 3 or 4 but TWO."

I probably said the first part, but just to be clear I DID NOT say the second part ("Not 3 or 4 but TWO"). Imo three or four subs intelligently positioned are superior to two, whether or not EQ is involved.

Quoting rauliruegas again:

"Again, even the AK designer/owner from where came your 4 bass array configuration posted in this same forum that two subs for two channel stereo MUSIC are ENOUGH."

I don’t remember saying that in so many words, and if I did, the word "ENOUGH" is highly subjective and I should have been careful how I used the word.

The basic problem is, the room imposes a significant peak-and-dip pattern on a subwoofer at low frequencies. The peaks are especially undesirable because they take longer to decay and can make the bass sound slow, boomy, one-note, etc.

We can move the subwoofers and change the peak-and-dip pattern, but we cannot eliminate it by positioning alone.

We can use bass traps to absorb bass energy and reduce the magnitude of the peaks and dips.

We can use EQ to reduce the energy going into the peaks and maybe even boost the energy going into the dips, which can work well at one location, but will usually make the bass worse at other locations because the peaks and dips will be at different frequencies.

We can use multiple subs spread intelligently around the room so that each produces a significantly different room-interaction peak-and-dip pattern, and the sum of these different patterns will be pretty smooth, and this smoothness will hold up well throughout the room. In general two subs intelligently distributed are twice as smooth as one, and four subs are twice as smooth as two.

I see no reason why these different approaches cannot be combined.

I really haven’t spent much time figuring out the best way to use two subs, because imo the improvement in going from two to four is worthwhile (assuming approximately the same total expenditure). If someone is limited to using two subs, then I suggest they go to one of my competitors. Not that I’m an expert on all of the subs out there, but ime Rhythmic makes some very nice ones.

Duke
guy who makes the Swarm