Should I upgrade home theatre to one with HDMI?

Tcatman: Sorry, I may still not understand, but I'll give it a shot.

I don't like what the Rotel does taking 2-channel input and running it through it's DSP for 5.1 sound. If I didn't have small front speakers, I'd run 2 channel bypass but I have to add in the .1 as my speakers roll off once you are in the 60-ish hertz range.

My room is definitely not optimized nor will it be barring personal tragedy or divorce (for me it is one in the same). The Rotel room management doesn't exist. I don't have any automatic room management/sound correcting software working (maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are getting at).

Bass management is done by ear. I've now had my subs in 3 different spots in the past month. I think I'm getting close to liking where they are.

I don't have any SACDs. So high resolution formats are HDCDs and blu-ray concert dvds. I don't even like some of the DTS audio cds I have (Henley's "End of the Innocence" for instance). They are muddy and meh to me. I prefer the regular CD hands down in this particular instance. Adele at Royal Albert Hall blu-ray, in stark contrast, is stunning in DTS 5.1.

Ah... I read through your other thread about your acoustic problems... Its a fun challenge!

Im not a pro at this stuff either... Part of my confusion was your terminology.
Bass management usually means the processing in the digital domain (either the Oppo prior to the output of your 5.1 analog signals.. or the Rotel (processing the hdmi input signal). The bass management had two jobs... One, to cross over the bass information to your sub. Two, process LFE or .1 channel and manage the gain issue for the LFE channel.

The old school method of using an analog filter in your sub with your two channel full spectrum analog signals coming to the subs and then high pass info to the mains was rarely termed base management. The subwoofer was never called... .1 because there was no separate LFE channel... The subs just played the low pass analog signal they got based on your filter cutoff while your mains were easier to drive without the bass frequencies.

So, I understand your current configuration as one of setting up the Oppo to do bass management for your 5.1 channel content using the single multichannel DAC in the OPPO. Sending discrete analog channels to the Rotel for all of your speakers and subs including the LFE info and the frequency information is right for each channel/speaker. This analog info is passed through the rotel and then amplified.

What I don't understand is how you manage the bass using your 2 channel (dual sabre DACS) outputs going pure direct to your Rotel amps for Music CDs ... It seems to me that you have to go old school with one of your subs running in analog mode because your not happy with the low end of your mains in stereo. (The other sub would be driven by the LFE channel in your 5.1 setup. (I can't imagine the Oppo giving you a third discrete output channel in this mode.) But I could be wrong about what your gear will do.

My original question is not applicable.
You don't have the ability to do room correction in the digital domain in either the Rotel or the Oppo and compare all of the potential solutions.

I am surprised that the Rotel is flexible enough to pass the 5.1 analog blue ray through to the amp AND have the CD inputs also bypass the digital stage and go pure direct to the amps.

So... I understand that you are at step one... Optimize the acoustics of your current speakers and subs in 5.1 mode. You are now trying to manage the acoustics of your room with a major WAF constraint..

Step two. You will consider different speakers given the size of the room you have and WAF.

In parallel with your acoustic experiments... you might consider a PC and JRiver MC with an HDMI output to your Rotel. (splitter for the video hdmi to your TV) You could use the DSP and room management tools of JRiver on the high resolution uncompressed 7.1 formats stored on disk and go to the Rotel DACS. This would allow you to evaluate if more digital processing room correction would improve your already optimized acoustics. (You would not have to purchase a new AV receiver to try the room management solutions)

Sorry for the multiquote fail, but I can't seem to do any formatting of text so I'll do my best to separate comments from responses.

>Tcatman wrote: What I don't understand is how you manage the bass using your 2 channel (dual sabre DACS) outputs going pure direct to your Rotel amps for Music CDs ...
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I think you are on to something here, Tcatman. I'm looking into just running through the multi-input on the Rotel as I think I can have the Oppo send 2.1 through that route. It would eliminate 2 RCA cables in my system. If I'm not mistaken, I can run the front mains through the stereo out of the OPPO and the center, surrounds, and the .1 LFE from the 5.1/7.1 analog outs. I'll have to break down and violate my engineering background and (re) read the manual...
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>Tcatman wrote: I am surprised that the Rotel is flexible enough to pass the 5.1 analog blue ray through to the amp AND have the CD inputs also bypass the digital stage and go pure direct to the amps.
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I can do 2 channel bypass, but then I don't have any .1 LFE. Made that mistake already. I've been running the 2 channel w/LFE, using the Rotel bass management to crossover at 80 hz. This may be a huge mistake on my part so I need to RTFM, as I stated above.
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>Tcatman wrote: So... I understand that you are at step one...
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That's two steps ahead of where I started thanks to thoughtful responses from Audiogon posters like yourself.
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>Tcatman wrote: Optimize the acoustics of your current speakers and subs in 5.1 mode. You are now trying to manage the acoustics of your room with a major WAF constraint..
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Ahhh yes, the WAF. Subs were moved again this weekend over WAF issues...I'm still in the denial stage of grief over this...
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>Tcatman wrote: Step two. You will consider different speakers given the size of the room you have and WAF.
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My room just plain acoustically sucks. I'd love to scoop up the Aerial Acoustic 7B's that are in the consignment section of one of the local high-end shops in town ($1800!), but that's not going to happen right now (my budget has changed due to some unforeseen issues). Of course given my mid-frequency hearling loss I may want to find some speakers that over-emphasize the 4k-12k hz range!
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>Tcatman wrote: In parallel with your acoustic experiments... you might consider a PC and JRiver MC with an HDMI output to your Rotel. (splitter for the video hdmi to your TV) You could use the DSP and room management tools of JRiver on the high resolution uncompressed 7.1 formats stored on disk and go to the Rotel DACS. This would allow you to evaluate if more digital processing room correction would improve your already optimized acoustics. (You would not have to purchase a new AV receiver to try the room management solutions)
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I'm going to have to do some googling to figure out what these items are and what they do, but it sounds intriguing! My Rotel can't accept an HDMI input though, if that's required.

you wrote
This may be a huge mistake on my part so I need to RTFM, as I stated above.

Yes... you have made a huge mistake.

Anytime you send analog signals to the rotel and ask it to do anything.. IE base management... the signal is digitized processed and then output through the DA of the Rotel. ... basically you wasted your money on the Oppo that way.

What I think you want is as good a 2 channel system that you can get with your speakers..

I would go old school on ONE of you subs with the 2 channel output from the oppo pure direct through the rotel. ... to the sub and then to your LR mains. Optimize this system for two channel imaging and base integration with your two main LR speakers setting the cross over and level to get the best integration of the base with your two main speakers. Get the spacing, phase etc right for your primary listening position as recommended in this thread.

For theater... you want all 5.1 channels to play the high res Blue Ray sound tracks.. So you need to go analog to do this. I would then use the multi channel Dac of the oppo and send all channels out of the oppos including the .1 and go pure direct ... do not use any of the features of the rotel... get them all turned off...You want it to be a pre amp and amp with a volume control.... In this mode the oppo will route the boom boom of a theater .1 track to this 2nd sub.... its cross over will be turned off... (you are using the Oppo for base management.... ).... You will need the manual to make sure how the rotel handles an analog .1 input and you make sure that it passes the .1 signal straight through to your other home theater sub. (you may just go from the Oppo to the 2nd sub... but you won't have the theatre sub on TV source material 5.1 dolby digital)

For theater mode... your mains and first sub will function just as they did in the best you can get two channel mode with the sub cross over doing it's thing.

Tell the Wife that you are compromising... ONE sub will stay exactly where you get your best two channel music... the other sub can hide in a corner if need be.. the boom boom of the .1 track of a movie won't be as critical for your listening.

Also hook up the oppo to the rotel with a fiber optic cable or digital cable.. (you can use the fiber optic out of the TV to the Rotel for both cable and the oppo if you run out of digital inputs) This will let you switch gears on the Rotel and use the Rotel Dacs, base management and what ever DSP they give you for standard DVDs (or blue rays that you use the standard dolby digital 5.1 track).... they probably give you several DSP modes.... eg Concert, or Movie Spectacular that do things to the sound....

Have fun... You will get the best results from the forum if you focus on improving your two channel sound... Once that is as good as you can get... the 5.1 stuff will be easier.

Thanks Tcatman.

Hopefully this has helped the OP, Kmw614214 too!

I will tackle the recommendations in the near future.

BTW: the JRiver stuff is beyond what I'm looking to do, to be frank, but thanks for pointing out the option. Just one more thing I didn't know before coming to the 'gon.