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Dazed & Confused

Listening to mostly jazz, solo instruments and vocals I find my Martin Logan Spire hybrids to sound awesome, but recently I was listening to some both "Busy" 90’s rock and classical (lots of instruments playing loudly together) and I find the music starts to sound garbled and annoying (to bright), so much so, I turn it off.
I was wondering if you all might have some suggestions on some speakers that would be a little more forgiving with busy/loud music that I could possibly switch over to when listening to different types of music. That is unless I can find speakers that can handle all styles of music, then I would consider taking the hit ($$$) on selling the Spires.

Without getting into room size and dynamics, lets just call it a standard room, I was also looking for something more efficient. The Spires need a huge amount of power (and volume) to sound good. Looking more for something I can listen to loud but also still enjoy the music at a much lower volume if that’s at all possible. Neutral and not to bright.
Living in the sticks, I can’t just jump in the car to go demo speakers. Only once, in the past, did I purchase a set of speakers online and unheard, going solely on the sales person’s recommendations. I learned the hard way to never do that again!

Equipment now: Coda CSiB integrated amp with W4S 2v2 SE Dac running Roon Nucleus.

I also wanted to mention that the Spires have phenomenal base, so much so I sold the 2 subs I was originally using with them. Floor standers and bookshelfs have come along way in SQ these days, but if I need to purchase another set of subs the budget is starting to dwindle.

No vinyl or CD’s, just Tidal.

$3,000 - $5000 budget, new or newer demos.

Thanks for any suggestions or advice you may have to offer!
Paul
high-amp
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almarg
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Just this week I saw Paul McGowan of PSA audio imploring viewers to ALWAYS turn DACs up all the way and leave the volume control to the pre-amp.
However Paul’s DACs (and the vast majority of others) do not put out maximum voltages anything like 10.5 balanced and 5.2 unbalanced, as the OP’s DAC does. Which can certainly cause problems for some preamps and integrated amps, ranging from having to set their volume controls too low (where depending on the specific design the resolution of volume changes may become too coarse and channel balance may suffer); to some degree of sonic degradation; to outright overload and severe distortion.

The very different and more conventional specs on Paul’s DirectStream DAC:

Output level, low: 0.282 VRMS Balanced; 0.141 VRMS Single Ended
Output level, high, maximum: 2.818 VRMS Balanced; 1.414 VRMS Single Ended

Also, there are a number of very different approaches to volume control implementation that are used by various DACs, which have differing susceptibilities to sonic degradation at settings that are below max.

As is usual in audio, it all depends :-)

Regards,
-- Al

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almarg
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W4S finally got back to me with this response:

" So a 1k load is quite ridiculous really, not sure why they would release something like that but surely don’t drive that single-ended. Running balanced will drive it and whatever degradation would be common to both phases so likely to cancel out. I can test a DAC to see how it handles it if you wish but I suspect it would be fine".

I’m afraid all this technical lingo is above me, could I please trouble you to comment on this response? Is the fact they "suspect it would be fine" acceptable in your mind?

First, to be sure it’s clear, you would not be driving 1K with a single-ended connection, as the input impedance of the single-ended inputs of your amp is 50K.

Regarding ...

Running balanced will drive it and whatever degradation would be common to both phases so likely to cancel out.

... My understanding is that balanced operation tends to cancel even order distortion components (e.g., 2nd, 4th, 6th harmonics, etc.), but not odd order distortion components (e.g., 3rd, 5th, 7th harmonics, etc.). And generally speaking odd order distortion components are more objectionable than even order harmonic distortion components.

However, given that he "suspects it would be fine," and given that you are happy (or at least encouraged) with the results you are getting at this point, I suppose it is reasonable to put this issue aside.

Regards,
-- Al

high-amp OP
508 posts
 
Again, this is a little over my head Al, so maybe some layman's advice, please.

With a speaker change pending, I may consider doing the same with the amp. I may then send the amp in for a tune-up beforehand.
Is there something I could ask Doug Dale at Coda to do to limit the output voltage of the balanced outputs. Knowing what you have explained to me so far, yes, I can just turn down the volume on the DAC, but what of any prospective purchasers? I wouldn't want to have to go to the trouble of having to explain all this, especially when I don't understand it all that well myself. 

Why do you think this voltage is so high here? What would be the intended equipment to run balanced at this voltage?
high-amp OP
508 posts
 

Hey jrwaudio,

I’m certainly open for you to share your thoughts on speakers that you have considered in the past. What I find a little odd is that if you are aiming towards ML’s, are the speaker you have tried in the past not living up to what you expect from ML’s, (which I already have)?

My wife and I love our Spires, we will not give then up until we can find something better, which I think will be pretty difficult on our budget.

I would actually purchase new unit first, before letting the Spires go just to ensure they sound equally as good. The focus for me being on something smaller and more efficient.

With regards to the listening position. My existing room is only 12’ deep. With the speaker 2 1/2’ of the back wall and my chair, a pushed up against the step down into the sunken living area, my ears are around 9’ away from the speakers and it sounds pretty darn good to me.

I find if you abide by ML’s flashlight method in setting up your listening position, this general rule works pretty well from any reasonable distance.

I was running a pair of GoldenEar Forcefeild 4 subs and wound up selling them as I found the bass on the Spires perfect my listening experience.


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almarg
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Is there something I could ask Doug Dale at Coda to do to limit the output voltage of the balanced outputs?
I presume you meant to refer to the amp’s balanced inputs, not outputs. I would recommend against asking him to do anything to make the amp more optimal for use with the high output voltage of your DAC, because it would likely make it less suitable for use with whatever DAC or other source components a future purchaser of your amp may want to use with it.

What you might ask him about, though, is if it would be feasible to drastically increase the input impedance of the amp’s balanced inputs. Very few tube-based source components can drive 1K properly, and many solid state source components would have trouble as well. So if it is practicable for him to make such a change, it would increase the amp’s versatility.

Why do you think this voltage is so high here? What would be the intended equipment to run balanced at this voltage?

I have no idea. (And btw the unbalanced output voltage of the DAC is also far higher than usual). My initial instinct was to suspect that the high output voltages of the DAC might be optimal for use with W4S’s own preamps and integrated amps, but looking at the gain and sensitivity specs for their currently produced models (which are fairly normal numbers) I doubt that is the explanation.

Best regards,
-- Al

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