2. amps-preamps
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PrimaLuna Dialogue Preamp = emotionless?

After years of running a PS Audio Direcstream dac directly into ATC active floorstanders, I decided to take everyone’s advice and add a preamp into the mix. I picked up a used PrimaLuna Dialogue with highly regarded Mullard CV4003’s and Phillips 5R4GYS’s, the tubes purchased by the original owner five years ago from Upscale Audio, a terrific source. My correspondents were correct about adding a good preamp: it transforms everything in a very big way. That’s the good news -- and bad. The latter is the reason for posting.

Before the preamp, this was a modestly warm system, for which the Directstream is known. It was one in which it was not hard to find myself drawn into the music and performance. Since adding the PrimaLuna however, I find myself watching -- or listening to -- emotion but not feeling a thing. That is, beyond marveling at the other characteristics of the presentation. After that, I’m left perfectly cold - 100%. This is not at all what I expected -- or desire.

So what to do... Is there anything I should look at with the preamp? What about other preamps, preferably tube ones? The skinny these days is that tube gear developers are trying to imitate the "neutrality" of solid state, the so-called modern tube sound some call it. With the PrimaLuna, I was expecting to find a point in between the classic tube sound and the common solid state one, but what I’m hearing is more than a little distant from that.

(Other than adding the PrimaLuna and not having Ultimate beeswax fuses in the DS and PL currently for other reasons, nothing else in my system has changed: modified Oppo 203 w/ digital output only, PS Audio P15 Regenerator and AC-12 power cords, and MG Audio Design AG2 ICs,)
highstream
lowrider57's avatar
lowrider57
5,417 posts
 
I think your first move should be to roll in some new tubes. The current tube selection may not be to your taste or they need to be replaced; they are five years old with unknown history.

I don’t know the different tube stages of your amp, but you don’t need to use the same tubes in all positions.
I love the CV4003’s, but they are laid-back and you may need to add more dynamic and engaging tubes. NOS Amperex, Telefunken, Sylvania all have more detail, are very open, yet still retain the timbre of tubes. NOS tubes have more realistic sonics than new production and are worth the extra money. There are so many NOS you can try that are less expensive than those mentioned.

A good source of information..
http://www.audiotubes.com/12au7.htm

The rectifier tubes may also need replacing. And it's possible that a different brand may be more engaging, although Philips makes  excellent tubes.

highstream OP
207 posts
 
Thanks for the replies. The preamp is non-demanding on tubes, so five years should be well within their range, although admittedly I don't know how the previous owner handled it (tubes were not why the previous owner sold it). In describing the Mullards, I found that many people use some version of warm, sweet, lush, liquid, smooth to, so that’s what I was expecting. I haven’t found this set of tubes laid back or lacking in dynamics. In anticipation of the PrimaLuna, I’ve started watching for good deals on Brimar CV4003’s and have just now rolled in an NOS pair. There’s also a pair of Brimar 13D5’s (CV4003) on the way. These four will cover the most important spots on the front end. The Brimars seem to be considered a bit warmer and more extended on top and bottom than the Mullards, but as you all say it’s in the mix (and taste).

Output impedance of the PL preamp is 256 ohms. Input impedance of the ATC SCM19As is 10K. I hadn’t considered that, although in a discussion with Don Sachs, he mentioned his preamp would need a 3uF cap to handle impedance that low (don’t know the output impedance of his).

P.S. Not sure why "follow" isn’t alerting me for this thread.
paulcreed
559 posts
 
I'll try to keep this short and hope this isnt offensive. I bought a little cheap Bruce Moore Preamp from a guy that had a Dialogue being shipped to him but it hadn't come in yet. He contacted me and regretted selling me the preamp and wanted it back. He describes the same thing you said. He had 4 very nice amps solid state and tube on hand and just couldn't enjoy the amp like he was hoping. He bought many highly regarded NOS tubes ( spent a lot of money) but couldn't get it to work even after 8 months, we still stay in touch and he is going to sell the amp. 
lowrider57's avatar
lowrider57
5,417 posts
 
I love the Brimar CV4003's, I'm using them in one of my amps.
I previously used Mullard longplate square getters. The Brimar has a more extended top-end than Mullard with more transparency, yet keeps a nice amount of warmth. I always use Brimar in one of the stages of my amps.
There still may be the possibility that using a neutral tube in one of the stages may present more engaging sonics, but I'm interested in your findings.

The preamp output impedance of 256 ohms is a good match in your situation and shouldn't present any issues with SS or tube amps.


helomech
1,670 posts
 
Have you swapped the PL out for Directstream DAC recently? This is what I would do before spending any money. You might find as I did that adding a tube preamp between DAC and amp was a matter of tradeoffs. 

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