New Old Thiel CS6 Speakers--Too Harsh


Hi All,

New pair of Thiel CS6 Speakers. First true pair of 'audiophile' speakers (...still might go back to my Kappa 7's and 8's).

Imaging and that 'holographic' sound is pretty good on the Thiels but not as good as the JBL 4312a's.  But again I am plagued by harshness in my system. It seems detail and excellent spatial performance just equates to brittle, harsh and painful in my room. I like to listen at rather loud volumes.

Frequencies that appear to be the problem are between 2khz all the way up to 16khz. If I EQ the system is listenable. 

The other issue the Thiels seem to have is out of phase low bass due to the passive radiator. Can anyone confirm this?

Here is my setup right now:
Modwright Oppo 105d (physical media and streaming)
Sonic Frontiers Line 2 preamp
Conrad-Johnson Premier 350 
14x17 room, on concrete slab carpeted with additional thick throw rug, heavy velour drapes over windows, bare walls and cd/record shelves, nothing on the ceiling.

What is causing the tizzy sharpness in my system/room?

So far the Infinity Kappa Series with its ribbon tweeters has sounded best in my room. The 8's are very impactful and tonally very complete. The 7's are close, not quite as impactful but have better imaging due to lower tweeter height. 

....and I don't want truth. I want beauty.

:-)

Thanks!


128x128brettmcee
My room is 14x17 and I have things setup lengthwise—speakers and gear are on the 14’ wall. Heavy, wall sized bookshelf full of vinyl and reel to reel tapes along the opposite wall. 
It’s got to be the room. I have been fighting this ‘listening fatigue’ hard harshness for like 5 years now. 
Two things I really have not changed are the room and the cabling. I would assume that room and room treatments will have a much bigger impact than cables so I should probably address that first.

I have been selecting gear that is all about ‘detail’ and that holographic reproduction—darker and colder. Maybe I have gone too far?

i also need to test the tubes in my Oppo and it’s power supply. Wish this were easier.

i have a BAT VK-500 with BatPak and a Caver Signature Sunfire 600 (I think it’s a 600?) that I am going to try with the CS6s.

Does anyone know if a Berning ZH-270 can adequately drive the Thiels? 
I suggest you not change gear before you try some acoustic treatment. You might find your existing gear is fine.
brettmcee OP
Old Thiel CS6 Speakers--Too Harsh

Brett it may almost surely just be the age they are now "if" that tweeter is ferro fluid cooled. It goes hard and make the tweeter nonlinear/distort and need to be changed. See here what I posted.
https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/1843203?highlight=ferro-fluid

Cheers George
34pm
@brettmcee OP


Btw your Bat is a fine amp for these CS6, and should be a great match with that load if working well, and not be the problem of your hard highs, unless there is a problem with it like the bias is out or caps need changing. (Is it equally nice and warm on both sides after an hour) this will tell you if the bias is OK.
But it’s probably the "ferro fluid" as I stated above if it has it and gone hard, go onto the Thiel forums and find out from the "experts" if they had "ferro fluid" in the tweeters many do and don't say it.

Cheers George

I think I can be of some assistance here. I have Thiel CS 3.6's and experienced both of the issues that you described, 1) the harshness and 2) the strange "out of phase" bass quality.

I would first of all say that while I have not listened to the Modright Oppo 105d, my gut tells me that your front end is NOT the cause of the harshness. I would say it is, with very high probability the AMP. I don't know the specific specs for a Conrad Johnson Premier 350 but it sounds like "parkhurst" above identified a mis-match with his CJ amp and the 3.6's. My previous power amp, an NAD 2200pe sounded very harsh and fatiguing with the 3.6's. The layering and detail in my digital recordings was all congealed and compressed in a very fatiguing way. I hated it. o I set out to do something about it. I ended up purchasing a Bryston 4B2 solid state amp. Apparently the 3.6's are present a very difficult low impedence load to the amp. I almost bought one of the hot rodded McCormack amps (used) that I had read quite a bit about. Instead I went with Bryston (new) for their 20 year warranty. The Bryston 4B2 (now replaced by the 4B3 which is even clearer sounding) really has the power that these 3.6's need. My Bryston is also hooked up to a Bryston BIT15 power conditioner which I believes helps as well. With a proper power amp that can handle the lower impedence loads your 3.6's will be much happier.


As to your issue with the bass. First of all see if a proper (solid state or tube) amp that can handle this speaker's low impedence needs helps the bass. Do much auditioning of your music as you make these changes. But my bass had been in focus in my rectangular listening room with the speakers arranged along the long wall. Then my girlfriend re-organized the room while I was at work and decided (on her own) that it made more sense to position the speakers along the short wall. Mistake! I noticed the bass being cancelled out right away. Turns out it was a sonic room node causing some cancelling of the bass energy. We put the speakers back where they originally were and like magic, the bass is back to being tight, and focused again!