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Preamp Output Capacitor: Mundorf Supreme vs. Supreme Silver Oil

Anyone compared the bass response of these two caps?  I bought the Supremes for trial purposes and really loved what they did to my system's imaging (front to back layering) and immediately bought the Silver Gold Oil Supremes.  Unfortunately while they were smoother, more beautiful, and even better at imaging, they had no bass (actually, they lost bass as they broke in).  Anyone know how the Silver Oil's fit into the line?  

I'm using them in a Don Sach's DS2 Preamp ( https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/7983).  

Thanks.
128x128cal3713
kalali's avatar
kalali
1,977 posts
 
Thanks. I’m not questioning the results, one way or the other, just wondering why and how it makes a difference. Apparently, in the chip design the different value and material parallel/bypass capacitors are used to push the inductance of the capacitor to higher frequencies and the combined impedance(s) of the capacitors is lowered across a broader frequency range. But that’s at MHz region. I’m guessing the same/similar phenomenon occurs in audio. Otherwise, on the surface you’re just adding the capacitances of the two capacitors.
grannyring's avatar
grannyring
6,467 posts
 
Sorry. I can’t explain as I am more of a experiential sort of guy. I try and enjoy or not. I will add that it’s all about the synergy between the stock piece of gear and the cap you are thinking of adding. For example the stock MHDT Orchid dac is warm, rounded so more air and vividness is a synergistic plus. The trick is not to go to far and lose the stock unit’s wonderful weight, bloom and body. That’s why I would not use a Mundorf SGO alone or with a bypass of any sort. However, the Odam & Cuft combo works perfectly for top to bottom correctness of tone.....perfectly balanced.   One has to know the sonic personality of the parts being used as they do indeed have a sound.
alexberger
900 posts
 
You need to try yourself, in some cases bypassing can work good in some cases bad.

In my case, Jupiter Cu 1uF works very good with Duelund Cu-Sn bypass 0.01uf on my phonostage output.
Probably, if I used a single Duelund Cu-Sn 1uF capacitor, it would be even better. But I didn’t try it.

In my speakers HF crossover I bypassed 4uF Duelund RS with the same Duelund Cu-Sn bypass 0.01uf. In direct comparison, when I remove bypass sound has a better focus,
but with bypass I have much more vivid, real, alive and musical sound.
audioguy777
3 posts
 
[quote]The sound character of the particular output capacitor will have a much greater effect than the different measured cutoff frequency with a 100K load (23 vs 8 Hz).
For example, a Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oil sounds “thin” regardless of cutoff frequency; an older InfiniCap would sound even more thin and lightweight. On the other hand, a .68uf Copper V-Cap with a 100K load will have deep, powerful, full-bodied bass despite the measured response being down 3db at 23 Hz.[/quote]

They both affect the sonics to a great degree. If one is taking a full sounding capacitor to produce bass, the mids and highs will also be negatively affected. A capacitor does not somehow alter its sonic character above bass.

One has to perform specialized, sophisticated listening tests to determine which capacitors are accurate in absolute terms and which are not. One must perform testing in a variety of conditions in the lab.

As just One reference test in the lab, we place a resistor across a full range driver and vary the resistance to determine what is perceivable. It has been clearly demonstrated that altering that resistors resistance by less than a millionth of an ohm affects the tonal balance and thus what one perceives. The tonal balanced has been altered. Other methods verifies our findings.

We are talking razor thin tonal balance changes across octaves. Close enough doesn’t make it. In either case of slight bass heavy or too thin, the voices/instruments will not be live sounding.
And is not that what many are searching for.

As such, it is not surprising why individuals perceive differences between components when the specs state a "loose" +/- 0,1db from 20-20khz. The so called rule of thumb with capacitors is anything but an accurate rule of thumb.

If a 0,68uf copper capacitor (100k load) has deep, powerful, full bodied bass then that capacitor is artificially flavoring the sound.
A truly accurate capacitor of that value will sound thin, not full bodied.
Unfortunately, Peter made several capacitors, including at least two Infini Capacitors with different covering colors. One is so accurate that we could not discern any difference, and the other is not.

[quote] You’re right! That should teach me to do math in my head. I dropped a digit.

Of course that makes the issue of the value of the cap even less significant sonically. With tube gear where the input impedance is typically 100K or more, a 0.68uf coupling cap is fine.[/quote]

One of the first things I look at in a component is what size is the coupling capacitors and the following grid (load) resistor.

Oh, it is still significant if one wishes to have the most accurate, natural, live sound possible in their living room. Of course, the rest of the design has to be just as good. No covering mistakes in the design here. Cheers

ag

ps. A couple of Mundorf capacitors I have checked are pretty darn accurate, and not super expensive.



atmasphere's avatar
atmasphere
11,784 posts
 
Could someone explain why adding a 0.01uF capacitor in parallel/bypass with a 2.2uF capacitor improves sound quality?
@kalali   It doesn't! Any capacitor has a certain 'speed' defined by a  combination of its dielectric constant and series resistance. This varies from cap to cap (inductance plays a role too; this is caused by the fact that the cap is rolled in a spiral fashion) and even from value to value of caps of similar construction.

BTW this is quite measurable (notwithstanding the known effects of the specifications on paper :) ) and one way to do it is to measure bandwidth. Some caps roll off the signal a lot quicker than others. The bigger the capacitor, the more profoundly its affected by these aspects.


Since smaller caps tend to be faster than larger caps, essentially a phase shift is introduced by the inclusion of a smaller cap in parallel with a larger cap. In a power supply this is advantageous, but as a coupling cap in a nutshell it smears the signal (and being real, the signal is messed with by the cap regardless). The more transparent your setup, the easier it is to hear this!


If this is done in a circuit that employs loop feedback, the phase shift introduced can interfere with the phase margin of the circuit; YIKES! this could lead to oscillation.


So as a result, unless you are compensating for a deficiency elsewhere in the circuit or system, the best approach is to give it your best shot and simply install the best capacitor you can and keep it as low a value as is practical.


This is also why increasing the value of a coupling cap (for example to extend bass response) isn't always a good idea. Circuits behave according to math  and the use of coupling caps is a really good example.
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