Adjusting speaker positioning. What, if anything, to expect?



I am going to adjust my Magico A3’s positioning a little bit to try to optimize their performance and the listening experience. Due to the logistics of the room they’re in, there’s only a limited amount I can move them. I’ll describe the room and what I can do within those limitations. I’m wondering what improvement I might be able to achieve with adjusting positioning.

The room is approximately 14’ x 22’. There is a high vaulted ceiling. about 15’ at it’s peak centered in the room on its horizontal axis. Picture how kindergarten child draws a house. That’s the shape of a cross section of the room and vaulted ceiling.. The speakers are located about 8’ apart centered on the long wall. The front of the A3’s are only out 22" from the wall, the rear of the speakers only 9" from the wall. That can’t be helped. The prime listening position is on a couch about 10’ out from and facing the same wall, also centered. The components are on shelves centered and built into the same long wall the speakers are on. There are some other furnishings, and books above built-in cabinets, line most of the other three walls.

I can move the speakers about a foot farther apart or closer together, and I can change their toe-in. What changes, if any, might I be expecting or hope to achieve moving the speakers within these limited parameters? Could the sound-stage be affected? I’m not sure what the sound-stage should be like anyway. Should it extend to the left or right outside the speakers, or be mainly between the speakers? Right now depending on the recording the vocals and instruments are usually between or no further apart than the actual speakers. Could the treble, midrange, or bass response be augmented or diminished depending on positioning? Are there any other factors that may be affected by positioning alone? Thank you for any guidance and please feel free to ask any questions. Thanks,

Mike
skyscraper
I can move the speakers about a foot farther apart or closer together, and I can change their toe-in. What changes, if any, might I be expecting or hope to achieve moving the speakers within these limited parameters? Could the sound-stage be affected? I’m not sure what the sound-stage should be like anyway. Should it extend to the left or right outside the speakers, or be mainly between the speakers?
Two things to keep in mind: speaker placement for imaging is almost entirely about absolute symmetry. You want to sit exactly the same distance from left and right, and with exactly the same amount of toe in. That’s one thing. The other one is tone. Big flat surfaces (walls, floors) tend to reinforce lower frequencies.

So what you do first is don’t worry about imaging but just listen for the bass and lower midrange balance. Try them closer, try them farther apart. You will probably notice a difference, even within the tiny range you have to work with. Leave them wherever you like the bass balance best.

Next take wherever they are and tweak and measure to get them symmetrical- equidistant, and also equally toed in. Listen for a solid center image, but also pay attention to the whole presentation, how deep and wide it is.

Now if you toe them in to where they are pointed straight at you the sound stage will be very solid, especially the center. Toed out and the stage will be more spacious, but probably not as solid. Make small adjustments in and out until you find the balance you like. There is no right or wrong. Its all about what you like.

The one thing you do want to be very careful about when doing this is perfect symmetry. Check carefully that they are toed in the same amount on each side. Even a small difference will result in a weaker image and if that is what you want then fine. But you do not want to be going for a holographic sound stage and then blow it with speakers all cock-eyed, and by cock-eyed I mean not inches but tiny fractions like 1/8". 

This is just the merest beginning, and focused on imaging because that’s what you asked about. But toe in also affects frequency balance, as most speakers sound a bit different off-axis than on. So you’re listening for that as well. But that’s why you go back and forth, take your time, play different music, tweak, listen, tweak, listen. 

Eventually you will find where you like them best. Then you can move on to putting them on cones, tweaking the room (if you’re able) or equipment (not only acoustic panels are acoustic, you know) and cables. Tweaking and fine tuning, there is no end. But this is the way to start.


Textbook Nearfield Listening Positions as described.
Try changing the distance between the Speakers.
The A3s are much larger than my stand-mounted mains.
Also the 15' vault should really help with A3s. 
My experience suggests closer would be right.
From 8' to 7' and leaving the listening position the same.
You should experience a sense of more power and greater depth.
As a goal anyway.
Before changing the spacing though do experiment with toe-in.
Go to zero toe-in (and any between) in the current position and listen for a bit.
Get an idea of what your sense of the sound is.
You may also experience some difference by moving the A3s toward the listening position.
Move the Sofa out of the way and Stand away from the back wall at an
equal distance to that of the Baffles from the front wall.
And listen for a bit.
The final positions could be inches in either direction (short axis/width).
But get a sense of what the sound does in the space.
Decouple the A3s if you have not done so and if the room is Lively / Bright (hard and harder surfaces) start thinking about treatment.
Once you have a good idea of how the Loudspeakers integrate then you can fine tune. 



Closer to the rear wall is going to reinforce bass response. You are pretty close, but mentioned that is your option. So be it. As mentioned, at the end of the day, it’s about personal preference. You mentioned you were not sure about sound stage and imaging. Sit in your selected position with your eyes closed, point to where you hear the main vocal track. A good vocal recording is helpful here. If you are pointing dead center and possibly slightly upward you are off to a good start. You speakers should be “invisible” to your ears. You should not be able to hear either speaker is a singular unit. Perhaps an instrument on one side or another, but not the speaker as a whole. To find your sweet spot, I suggest getting a chair on wheels and as MC said, put it equidistant to form a triangle. Then slowly move back and forth and see where your favorite position is. That way your head height remains consistent and relative to your final listening position. Mostly have fun with it. 
Thank you very much for the detailed explanation, Millercarbon. Would you mind clarifying some of the terminology you used so I can follow what you are saying carefully. What exactly do you mean by "imaging". I’ve heard the term used many times, but never had anything but a vague or loose understanding of what it means. Also when you refer to "bass and mid-range balance" what are you meaning? I’m only guessing, but Is it the amount of one in relation to the other, or something entirely different?

As you suggest, I will be careful to keep everything absolutely symmetrical to the 1/16" inch if need be. Thanks for pointing out the need to be that exact.The current set-up when you sit in the center of the couch is an equilateral triangle with the speakers 8’ apart on center and the listener eight feet from the front of either when seated. Does this sound like a reasonable arrangement? The speakers are toed out a bit from that, so I’ll toe them in as you mentioned so they are pointed directly at the listener’s head to have a solid center image to start with, and proceed from there.

There aren’t any big flat open surfaces to contend with, unless you count the vaulted ceiling, so that shouldn’t be an issue. The floors are oak, but the area in front of the couch and speakers is covered with a thick (Persian) rug the width of the couch.

One last question for you or anybody. How far should the sound stage extend beyond the speakers, if at all? I read somewhere on site the sound stage should not extend to the left or right of the left and right speakers unless they are wired out of phase. Is that so? The sound stage now often seems to emanate from inside the shelf area holding the components between and in back of the speakers.

Again, thank you,

Rego and geof, your posts came in while I was writing this response. I will get back to you in the morning as it is getting quite late and I have to call it quits for tonight.

Mike