The trend is clear. The pendulum has swung. At 500 words to say "buy what you like" it can only swing back to brevity. We hope.
What the 802 and 3 Decades can tell us about trends
Hi Everyone,
For the longest time I’ve been saying that high end speakers can be very trendy. What taste-makers claim to be superlative sounds one decade may no longer be in another, and the trouble recording engineers have as a result. The ideal loudspeaker is not a lab instrument in a vacuum. While we can in fact measure what neutral is, we cannot also say you should buy X because of it, buy what you like.
The same is true for recordings. Played on different era gear, they may sound better or worse. How we each resolve this issue is not for me here, but I think we have enough data for the B&W 802 to talk about how it has evolved and we have a modern speaker designer talking about how differently he would voice the same speaker today. The S3 version is, I believe, from the early 1990s.
If you get anxious about dissecting your brand of speaker, and that happens to be B&W, this post is not for you. Just stop right here. On the other hand, if you are curious about contrasting takes on speaker design, in terms of calendars and designers, this may be a fun thread for you.
First, we have to start with the Troels upgrade of the 802 S3 because he includes measurements for the original as well as his mods:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/B&W-802s3_Upgrade.htm
Under "Measurements," look on the left. Troels knows what he’s doing, so we’ll take his work at face value. That is the measurement for the 802 S3 as he received it.
Let’s compare that to the modern 802 measurements from Stereophile, (2016, figure 3) here:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-wilkins-802-d3-diamond-loudspeaker-measurements
The 1990 era speaker is flat from about 100 Hz to 1 kHz and then shelves down about 4-5 dB. Strong bass and presence, with subdued mid to tweeter response. Not exactly a V shape, and look in particular around 2 kHz, the trend there is upwards. This range is important as it’s been used to accentuate imaging after this.
Second, look at the 2016 measurements. A dip around 2-3 Kz, and two peaks, one at 4 kHz and one at 10 kHz. This is rather the trend for modern B&W for the past few years. That peaky response IS the B&W sound, and yes, it is very very important in giving them the character they have. As experts have written, the first thing buyers notice is the frequency response of the speaker, then smooth off axis response.
Lastly, lets look at how Troels takes the original speaker and re-defines it. He follows the classic B&K curve here. As smooth as possible, and downward sloping. There’s significantly less variation anywhere in the tweeter range, and this is no longer either a shelved or V shaped curve. Under his page, look on the right under Measurements to see his solution.
Objectively, of the three, Troels has the closest to a neutral sounding B&W 802. The factory 802 S3 and D3 models are tuned very differently from each other, in large part because the tweeter has significantly different sonic signature.
So what are we left with? Trends. This posting is all about trends and changes and fads and how we are all involved in this process. Think of this as a general law of audio relativity. What seems to sound neutral to us today, certainly would not have 30 years ago, and vice versa. Reviewers and buyers and recording artists are making this all up as we go along, so buy what you like because there will never be one right, perfect answer.
For the longest time I’ve been saying that high end speakers can be very trendy. What taste-makers claim to be superlative sounds one decade may no longer be in another, and the trouble recording engineers have as a result. The ideal loudspeaker is not a lab instrument in a vacuum. While we can in fact measure what neutral is, we cannot also say you should buy X because of it, buy what you like.
The same is true for recordings. Played on different era gear, they may sound better or worse. How we each resolve this issue is not for me here, but I think we have enough data for the B&W 802 to talk about how it has evolved and we have a modern speaker designer talking about how differently he would voice the same speaker today. The S3 version is, I believe, from the early 1990s.
If you get anxious about dissecting your brand of speaker, and that happens to be B&W, this post is not for you. Just stop right here. On the other hand, if you are curious about contrasting takes on speaker design, in terms of calendars and designers, this may be a fun thread for you.
First, we have to start with the Troels upgrade of the 802 S3 because he includes measurements for the original as well as his mods:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/B&W-802s3_Upgrade.htm
Under "Measurements," look on the left. Troels knows what he’s doing, so we’ll take his work at face value. That is the measurement for the 802 S3 as he received it.
Let’s compare that to the modern 802 measurements from Stereophile, (2016, figure 3) here:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-wilkins-802-d3-diamond-loudspeaker-measurements
The 1990 era speaker is flat from about 100 Hz to 1 kHz and then shelves down about 4-5 dB. Strong bass and presence, with subdued mid to tweeter response. Not exactly a V shape, and look in particular around 2 kHz, the trend there is upwards. This range is important as it’s been used to accentuate imaging after this.
Second, look at the 2016 measurements. A dip around 2-3 Kz, and two peaks, one at 4 kHz and one at 10 kHz. This is rather the trend for modern B&W for the past few years. That peaky response IS the B&W sound, and yes, it is very very important in giving them the character they have. As experts have written, the first thing buyers notice is the frequency response of the speaker, then smooth off axis response.
Lastly, lets look at how Troels takes the original speaker and re-defines it. He follows the classic B&K curve here. As smooth as possible, and downward sloping. There’s significantly less variation anywhere in the tweeter range, and this is no longer either a shelved or V shaped curve. Under his page, look on the right under Measurements to see his solution.
Objectively, of the three, Troels has the closest to a neutral sounding B&W 802. The factory 802 S3 and D3 models are tuned very differently from each other, in large part because the tweeter has significantly different sonic signature.
So what are we left with? Trends. This posting is all about trends and changes and fads and how we are all involved in this process. Think of this as a general law of audio relativity. What seems to sound neutral to us today, certainly would not have 30 years ago, and vice versa. Reviewers and buyers and recording artists are making this all up as we go along, so buy what you like because there will never be one right, perfect answer.
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- 19 posts total
"What seems to sound neutral to us today, certainly would not have 30 years ago, and vice versa" Agreed: I wonder how much of this is related to our own aging process, e.g. the gradual degradation of our hearing over the years.....and the realization by manufacturer's that they need to differentiate themselves if they have any chance of us parting with our $$. |
Erik Your article would be IMO much more fun and interesting, if your author Troels had set up the 802 s3 as designed from the factory optimized with the BAF. Then one could see what his mods accomplish versus a properly set up 802M s3. https://www.kenrockwell.com/audio/b-w/800-series-bass-alignment-filter.htm taken from ^^ Bowers and Wilkins' Matrix 800 series of speakers from the late 1980s through the mid-1990s were designed directly to John Bower's vision as part of a system incorporating an active, dedicated low-level filter in the preamplifier signal path to optimize the bass performance, not only in frequency, but also in the time and phase domains. Troels comments at the start of the article. Before starting any measurements I set up the speakers in my living room and replacing my ATS4, I experienced a somewhat smaller speaker with less visceral impact in the bass area and a somewhat less weighty lower midrange presentation, giving less fullness to vocals. The sonic symptoms he describes can be attributed to running without the bass alignment filter. I say this based on personal experience having owned at one time all of the matrix line. Sill own matrix 800's. Now the thing that is even more curious to me. He does link the owners manual in his article. The owners manual clearly states the need to use the BAF to achieve the frequency response that is documented. Cheers |
- 19 posts total