Phono stage for 0.2mv cartridge?

The ModWright Reference PH-150 tube phono stage provides a lot of gain and is very quiet in my system, currently set up with a low-output Lyra Kleos SL (0.25 mV output).  Dan Wright could probably answer some of your specific questions in this area.

This discussion is interesting.  The replies are kind of what I expected, and I hope to understand this a little bit better.
 My preamp's volume control reads in db from -80 to +15.  I listen to a variety of program material and with some symphonic and much rock I like it kind of loud sometimes, up to 90 or 95 db (by my meter).  With digital sources this is achieved with volume settings in the -10db area.  Using an EAT Jo No.5 cartridge (0.3mv) connected to the Canary increases the volume setting to +5 or so for the same volume.  This is fine with me, with low background noise and plenty of volume.  Switching to either of my 0.2mv cartridges requires raising the volume to +10 or more for this volume level and I have found myself maxing out a couple of times.  With my volume control set this high, the hiss (per Al) from the phono stage starts becoming apparent.  More annoying typically with symphonic music.
  My preamp is a McIntosh C100, phono cable is Harmonic Technology.  I am trying to improve on the Mc's already very good phono stage.  The Canary is to my ears a large positive change and I hope to equal that if I can.

Bill

Bill
Thanks for the additional information.
However something really does not add up somewhere.
No way with a 0.2mv output and 69.5 db of gain should you be anywhere near maxing out your preamp gain!

Now maybe it’s further down the chain as even with a digital source you are near the top of your preamp gain.
Possibly undersized power amp with inefficient speakers?
Just generally working hard with your Watts for a living?

So power amp and speakers?

If you posted your full system, it'd be easier to know what's going on.  Agree with @uberwaltz that there ought to be plenty of gain.  Is your old C100 working properly?  Have you tried another phono stage besides the Canary?  You're running a weakling amp, maybe?  Or your speakers are are tough to drive?  Hard to diagnose without more info.

@wbs

As I explain later in this post, in addition to providing the info suggested by the others it may very well be useful if you could describe how much difference there is between the volume control settings you would use for a given cartridge with the C100’s built-in phono stage vs. the Canary’s phono stage. I’m starting to suspect that the Canary may be providing significantly less gain than the 69.5 db spec, for whatever reason.

The gain of the phono section of the C100, fyi, is about 73 db for LOMCs according to my calculations (excluding the gain of the line stage).

It appears that inadequate gain in the C100’s line stage can probably be ruled out as a cause of what you have described. The line stage of the C100 is specified as producing an output of 2.5 volts in response to an input of 450 mv. That corresponds to a gain of about 14.9 db, which is very consistent with your mention of a +15 db max setting of the volume control, and which is significantly above average as line stages go these days.

And if a weak tube or other defect were somehow causing reduced gain in the line stage, it would not account for the more reasonable results you are getting with a 0.3 mv cartridge compared to your 0.2 mv cartridges. 0.2 mv is only about 3.5 db less than 0.3 mv.

What **might** be adding 3 db to that difference, though, are differences in how cartridge output specs are defined. See my post dated 7-4-2012 in this thread.

But regarding the gain provided by the Canary phono stage, 69.5 db would boost the rated output of a 0.3 mv cartridge to about 896 mv, and it would boost the rated output of a 0.2 mv cartridge to about 597 mv. And as I understand it brief dynamic peaks of some recordings, especially those having particularly wide dynamic range, can on occasion cause a cartridge to put out several times the rated output. The upshot being that those numbers seem to me to be several db higher than I would expect would result in the 15 db difference in volume control setting you’ve described for the 0.3 mv cartridge compared to digital sources, as well as the difference of 20 to 25 db with the 0.2 mv cartridges compared to digital sources, if you are using unbalanced interconnections in both cases and if the Canary is truly providing 69.5 db.

More annoying typically with symphonic music.

Not surprising, of course. As you certainly realize the wide dynamic range of many symphonic recordings will often result in the volume control being set higher than for most other kinds of recordings, and the soft passages of symphonic recordings will be more revealing of hiss.

Those are my thoughts at this point. Not sure what else to suggest beyond what I and others have already said.

Good luck. Regards,
-- Al