Bryston 4B3 vs Mac MC462 vs Pass Labs X250.8, OR... GRYPHON Diablo 300?

Hi Nyev!

May I ask if the dealer that you referred to is in Vancouver? And the demo that you referred to...for 19k US, did that include the GST? I have been emailing back and forth with a (actually the one and only!) dealer in Canada and there is a demo available there with both the phono stage and the DAC...but it is higher than 19k (even if I do the conversion and add GST, my given price is still higher than what it looks like you may have been offered. I also wonder if this could possibly be the same demo...Also, how do you like internal DAC???
Thanks and all the best!!!
Kevin 

Hi Kevin,
It was a while back now so I cannot recall if the 19K included the GST.  Yes the dealer is the one in Vancouver. 

If it's a different unit than the one that was there at the time, the dealer will need to price it in accordance with how much they spent to get the demo unit.  For example for the demo I was looking at, they may have acquired it at a lower cost. Having said that, feel free to negotiate but also to be fair, you should be willing to walk away if they don't agree to your price.

About demo units, be advised:  The dealer may not know the history of the unit in question; it may have had many previous lives as a traveling demo for all you know.  They couldn't confirm the history for me of the demo they had at the time, which for me made it a non-starter (could have traveled the world at conferences, etc). They had bought the demo from Gryphon who had previously used it as a demo I think.
In general I'm still totally satisfied that I purchased the best amp (considering separates or integrated) that I could for the price, for my tastes.  And that doesn't happen often with me - I'm not one to be positively biased simply because I've spent a lot on something.  In fact it's usually the opposite as I have such high expectations relative to cost.  Couldn't ask for a better amp really, and I can't believe I actually was looking at Bryston / McIntosh before, considering you'd end up spending a similar amount of money for separates / interconnects / power cables.  Just watched "Knives Out" last night and saw a McIntosh CD player featured in a scene, and thought "thank god I went with the Diablo".  No offense to McIntosh or Bryston fans; it's all subjective to personal taste. 

I can't say too much about the DAC module as I don't have extensive experience testing DAC's.  All I know is I am blown away comparing it with my standalone Arcam irDAC that I was using before (which to be fair is a very highly regarded DAC but way, way less expensive than the Gryphon module).  I'm really happy with the DAC but I wouldn't trust my advice here given my limited DAC testing experience.  It is super cliche but the Gryphon module sounds far more "analog" than my Arcam irDAC which sounded thinner and not as fully fleshed out in comparison.  And, you get to take advantage of the magic blue flashing light that indicates the DAC module's super-cap is charging (for a minute or a bit longer after amp startup), which supposedly improves sound by ensuring the DAC is not relying on the digital source for USB power.  That said, if I listen to music for the minute or so when the blue light is flashing, meaning that the super-cap is still charging and therefore USB is still powered by the source, I hear no improvement at all after I hear the faint click of a relay and the blue light stops flashing.  Maybe because my Innuos digital source already has a high-quality power supply for the USB?  Who knows.  Not sure if the improvement is supposed to be due to the quality of USB power, or the fact that power comes from one circuit with better grounding, or something like that...  If anyone knows what Gryphon's theory is around the benefit of the super-cap is (beyond the high-level marketing explanation), I'd be interested to know what my flashing blue light is actually doing for me!

Good luck Kevin! 

Hello Nyev and thank you so very much for the prompt and informative response! I honestly thought that because the thread was almost a year old that you would not have even seen my inquiry...thanks for keeping your eyes peeled!

A little history of my dilemma and hoping that I may be able to glean a little more help/guidance from you. Presently I have McIntosh separates. C1100 preamp and MC 452 amp. I know that you have reported that the 452 was not anywhere near in the same league as the 300 (excellent to know!!!). My problem is that I’m debating whether to divest myself of all my Mac gear and go with the 300, or if a move to the Mac 611 mono blocks could bring me to that nice sweet spot. I can’t really find any comparisons of the Diablo versus the 611’s (601’s for that matter) and where I live makes auditioning prohibitive...and actually impossible to demo a 300 as there are no dealers in Ontario. Wondering if you have any insight...?

Also, did you have the opportunity to negotiate a better price for the new 300 and the DAC compared to the retail prices that are on the web? I know that the demo pricing looks good (after reading your response to my message I emailed the dealer inquiring of the history of the unit...thanks!), but if I do decide on a 300 and not the demo available, I’m wondering if our Canadian dealer is willing to negotiate!

Thanks again, Nyev!!!

Kevin

p.s. Think the Diablo is your “end game” as I have seen that term used often to refer to, “I’ve found Nirvana!!!”?

Yes I found the McIntosh separates really un-engaging in comparison with the Diablo.  I went into the at-home testing with quite a lot of respect and expectations of the McIntosh brand.  But after the test I can't view McIntosh in the same light.  Not really fair to McIntosh as I think my feeling is that there is nothing materially wrong with the brand, but rather the Diablo 300 is just punching way above its weight, in an integrated package which further decreases cost and increases value.  I'm sure it can't touch far more expensive Gryphon separates, but I think the Diablo strives to be comparable at that level.
Having said this I don't have experience with the McIntosh mono blocks so I can't really comment, other than you would need to factor in the cost of all the upgraded interconnects and power cables, which are an absolute must (and will cost thousands for decent cables). For all non-believers do a blind test, and then comment.  My non-audiophile wife can easily hear the differences in blind tests, even if she has a funny way of verbalizing what she hears. Also I just found the build quality of the McIntosh preamps to be a bit light and chintzy.  It is light, it doesn't feel solid, and the screws on the chassis are not even flush mounted.  Based on my experience with McIntosh brand, my totally subjective biased instinct would be to move away from McIntosh and not consider the mono's, but really that is not fair advice considering my lack of experience with the mono's.  I'm biased based on my test and also because I'm totally satisfied with the Diablo.

You'll probably hate hearing this, but just like so many have said, I suggest taking a flight to Vancouver (quickly before Coronavirus takes over the country lol) and listening. The Gryphon dealer would be happy to arrange a head-to-head test between the Diablo 300 and the McIntosh mono blocks - give them advance warning and provide a Tidal playlist ahead of time, and they'll have it set up for you when you arrive.  Fortunately I did not have to fly, but I was totally prepared to if needed (after saving additional funds).  You can't possibly make the best decision for you without going to listen, so you can't look at the travel cost, which I know are high, as wasted money.  And even then it's still not perfect as it's different speakers and different rooms, which messed with me a bit.  There was definitely a bit of a leap of faith at the end, but you want to narrow that leap as much as possible.  Don't know if you'll take me up on this, but if you do go, make sure to go multiple times on the trip with a break in between, even if on the same day.  Traveling is hectic and psychologically there is pressure on extracting everything you can from your senses in a brief listening session, and that does not provide a very good quieting / leveling of your auditory perception with all of those factors going on.  The first time I went I traveled a short distance, and arrived after meeting with family, in between events, and realized I was dehydrated.  I left with completely wrong conclusions and at first decided I wasn't going to proceed.  I went back another time, totally relaxed (and hydrated), and things came together and I had a much better assessment of what I was perceiving.  I had to trust that the slight niggles I still had with the sound were more related to the speakers at the dealer, and once I got the Diablo home I was thankful that my gut was right.  Sounded perfect to me even before burn-in.

Almost every retail item at this price point is negotiable, so yes I did negotiate.  But you should follow your own path on the price points to negotiate; wouldn't be fair of me to disclose what the dealer let it go for.  Just know that they have some margin baked into the retail cost and that is flexible to a point.  Don't get greedy and just offer a fair offer that's a bit lower than asking.  They will counter your offer of course, so expect that and it's up to you if you want to stick to your guns.
The Diablo 300 exceeds all of my expectations and I don't see how I'd possibly ever need to reevaluate.  At some point when financially viable I need to find the equivalent for speakers - but that's a ways off.  Currently my system sounds incredible, but I do recognize that performance is now limited by what my 803 d2's can do.  Great speakers for me, but they are about a third of the value of the Diablo 300 so there are some inherent constraints in the detail the Diablo can push through them, etc.  The Diablo signature sound is definitely present even when testing different speakers at the dealer - it sort of takes over, in a very good way.

Nyev,

Once more, thank you so much. Your analysis is most helpful and I truly appreciate all the guidance you have given me. Rather than fly out west, my wife and I are planning a little trip down to New York to set up an audition. It’s by appointment only, but they do have both McIntosh and Gryphon, so a head to head battle sounds like fun! By the way, the gentleman that I have been corresponding with at the dealer in Vancouver has been incredibly helpful and has been very prompt in answering all my emails. He basically said that I cannot go wrong with either the Diablo or the 611’s with my C1100 preamp. He was quite descriptive in the attributes of both. BUT...he did say to get the desired sound out of the Mac equipment, I would need to, as you have stated Nyev, is drop some serious scratch for the power cords and interconnects. He also stated, however, that once, “you’ve been hooked by the tone of the Gryphon, there’s no going back,”. He also said that I would need a stack of 5 boxes with all the power cords and interconnects to equal the performance of the Diablo. He said the Diablo, “cannot be touched for an all-in-one package”. So...looks like I’m getting closer and closer to being overtaken by the impressive Dane...

All the best Nyev,

Kevin