Are big subwoofers viable for 2 channel music?

Hello jwmorris/John,

I just wanted to respond to a few of your statements on your last post:

"Oh, by the way, my in room response is +/- 3 db from 100 to 6 Hz." and "There are frequencies below 20Hz used in some of today’s music".

Your profile has no system details and I’m wondering if you could list the main speakers and subs you use in your system? It seems like you use your system for both stereo music and HT playback, just as I do.
     Your stated in-room bass response of +/- 3 db from 100 to 6 Hz is impressive. My Audio Kinesis Debra 4-sub distributed bass array system only has a bass response of +/- 3 db from 100 to 20 Hz.
     However, I’m fairly certain that 4K Ultra HD Bluray discs and streaming videos don’t contain any audio content below 20 Hz. I’m virtually 100% certain that no commercially available stereo music content, whether issued on LP, CD, SACD or Hi-Res digital file, contains any audio music content below 20 Hz because not one of the numerous individuals, that I’ve asked to identify a single specific example of a stereo music recording with bass below 20 Hz, has been able to do so. I’ve even searched for a single example myself without any luck. Can you name a single example? Anybody reading this thread know of a single example?
     My main point, which I believe you likely agree with, is that it makes little sense to have an audio system capable of bass down to 6 Hz if there’s no HT or music content that contains bass that deep. Are you sure you’re not listening and feeling bass that’s going down to 20 Hz and just thinking it’s going down to 6 Hz?
In my room, even bass down to only 20 Hz sounds and feels very deep with powerful impact and realism on both HT and music. I don’t perceive I’m missing a thing.

Tim

Tim --

...I’m fairly certain that 4K Ultra HD Bluray discs and streaming videos don’t contain any audio content below 20 Hz. I’m virtually 100% certain that no commercially available stereo music content, whether issued on LP, CD, SACD or Hi-Res digital file, contains any audio music content below 20 Hz because not one of the numerous individuals, that I’ve asked to identify a single specific example of a stereo music recording with bass below 20 Hz, has been able to do so. I’ve even searched for a single example myself without any luck. Can you name a single example? Anybody reading this thread know of a single example?

This is tangential to your former examples of arguments in the vein of "there’s no stereo information in the bass, neither recorded nor perceived; symmetrical placement of subs is moot (at a not specified cross-over frequency)" etc., and it goes to show what you’d like to feel better about while trying to convince others into believing as well. Sorry to be blunt about this.

Let’s make this clear once and for all: there IS content below 20 Hz en masse certainly as found on Blu-ray’s and UHD’s (look over at highdefdigest.com and their Blu-ray/UHD reviews, where there are occasional bass charts to prove there’re numerous examples of titles with infrasonic information into the single digits), and while I’ve seen no similar documentation on whether CD’s contain information below 20Hz I know of several individuals who have a music collection to strongly benefit from sub systems capable of much below 20Hz reproduction (compared to "just" having honest capabilities down to 20Hz), which is at least indicative of source material actually containing information in these "nether regions." Head over to the AVSForum and see with your own eyes the sub set-ups these people have in their homes, and ask them whether <20Hz reproduction matters. Visit databass.com and ask the same. The answer, I promise you, while be quite unanimous. People may not all agree on the priority of attaining infrasonics (and the compromises potentially involved here), but most won’t deny that frequencies down to ~10Hz (below that to truly matter requires rather massive radiation area and power to make a difference) are perceivable/felt, and can have a big impact on the experience. The proof is IN THE EATING of the pudding, but there’s documentation to back it up as well - should you feel inclined.

My main point, which I believe you likely agree with, is that it makes little sense to have an audio system capable of bass down to 6 Hz if there’s no HT or music content that contains bass that deep. Are you sure you’re not listening and feeling bass that’s going down to 20 Hz and just thinking it’s going down to 6 Hz?
In my room, even bass down to only 20 Hz sounds and feels very deep with powerful impact and realism on both HT and music. I don’t perceive I’m missing a thing.

With my own sub set-up I’ve consciously chosen to forego <20Hz because I favor bass reproduced from horns, tapped horns at that (this requires of you to actually buy into that bass isn’t just bass, be that via distributed arrays or not), and while infrasonics can be had with bass horns they simply end up being ginormous (so, a practical consideration), or with tapped horns in particular it means giving up extension in the upper frequency range, eating away sensitivity (though it’ll stay higher than any typical direct radiation sub) while continuing to have the physical size grow into behemoths when seeking an ever lower tune. When in my tapped horn subs the drivers move just a couple of millimeters with content down to 20Hz, I don’t feel I’m missing anything either - indeed it’s a visceral, awesome experience that shakes the air. I absolutely agree with you on the sufficiency felt here, although it’s not only about mere extension but also, and importantly about how these frequencies are reproduced.

However, I’ve heard what <20Hz can do when reproduced forcefully, and it adds a dimension difficult to describe other than it has emotional impact (as @jwmorris expressed above) and can also lead to a sense of unease and even intimidation. It makes a difference in particular with Blu-ray’s/UHD’s, and while I’m a movie buff and know of what I’m missing with my choice of sub system, I feel I gain sonically where it matters mostly to my ears, which is from ~20Hz on up.

@phusis is absolutely correct. There is content below 20Hz and each individual must decide tor themselves if that content is worth pursuing. 

@noble100  It is true some movies are released with bass filtered content. There is a group of  enthusiast that have created a way to measure each movie, and display the average and maximum level of content at each frequency. They then found a way to use a mini-dsp to restore the filtered content.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/2995212-bass-eq-filtered-movies.html  

I found a Spotify list of music with content below 20Hz using Google, I have not played this list. The search took about 5 minutes:
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1Of0wCy23zikiR2kdzNeCo

The 1960 VW Karmann Ghia came with a 36 HP engine. The top speed was 72 MPH. The top speed of a BMW 528 xi is 155 MPH. Both cars cars can drive 70 MPH, but the driving experience will be very different. The BMW will reach speeds that are seen in daily use with extreme ease and comfort.

The same applies to speakers. You may be able to get a speaker to play at 30 HZ but if it is struggling to do so, distortion goes up and the sound is affected. That is the reason we have sub-woofers, they take over where our main speakers are challenged. A large sub-woofer, with a numerically lower frequency limit can take playing ability one step beyond a sub-woofer limited to 20 Hz. A sub-woofer that can play clear, distortion free, sound at reasonable levels below 20 Hz is completely at ease at with content above 20 Hz, that difference can be heard.    
     
I use Vandersteen speakers in my multi-channel system. I use Innersound Eros in my office system. I will try and get some system information up this week. I also plan on trying to show my system measurements as well but if I show you mine, you have to show me yours (system measurements that is...). 

phusis: "This is tangential to your former examples of arguments in the vein of "there’s no stereo information in the bass, neither recorded nor perceived; symmetrical placement of subs is moot (at a not specified cross-over frequency)" etc., and it goes to show what you’d like to feel better about while trying to convince others into believing as well. Sorry to be blunt about this."

jwmorris:"I found a Spotify list of music with content below 20Hz using Google, I have not played this list. The search took about 5 minutes:
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1Of0wCy23zikiR2kdzNeCo"

Hello phusis and jwmorris,

     I think it's best if we consider these as separate issues:

1.  Recorded 4K Ultra Hd Bluray bass content. 

       I had stated: "I’m fairly certain that 4K Ultra HD Bluray discs and streaming videos don’t contain any audio content below 20 Hz. "  I believe my statement is generally correct but I'm willing to concede the fact that there is recorded sub 20 Hz bass existing on numerous 4K Bluray discs if individuals are willing to invest the time, effort and equipment required to retrieve and play it back.  I'm not interested in doing so but I understand there are other HT enthusiasts that enjoy plumbing the bass depths of their HT systems. 

2. Recorded stereo music content.

     Acoustic scientists have proven that humans cannot localize, which means to determine where a sound is coming from,  bass frequency tones below about 80 Hz  but are increasingly adept at localizing tones as the frequency of the tone increases from about 80 Hz up to the human audible high frequency limit of about 20,000 Hz.  
      Recording engineers, of course, were aware of these facts and are  the reason virtually all of them have been summing all the bass below about 100 Hz to mono on their master recording mixes for all music content formats for the past 60-70 years.    This means there's no recorded stereo bass information on music content on
     Phusis, your link on your last post to a Spotify site, that you stated lists music recordings containing bass below 20 Hz, did not work and connect me to this list.  Can you please correct this and repost the link? 
    You do realize that you conflated several separate but related bass issues when you stated ""This is tangential to your former examples of arguments in the vein of "there’s no stereo information in the bass, neither recorded nor perceived; symmetrical placement of subs is moot (at a not specified cross-over frequency)" etc., and it goes to show what you’d like to feel better about while trying to convince others into believing as well. Sorry to be blunt about this.", right?
     You conflated the separate issues of whether there are any music recordings in any format that contain bass below 20 Hz with whether this deep bass is recorded in stereo and whether individuals would be capable of perceiving the deep bass as stereo even if the bass below 20 Hz actually was recorded in stereo.  My point is that all the following conditions have to be met for you to be correct about the viability of achieving true stereo deep bass in your system: 

1. At least a single commercially available music recording with bass content below 20 Hz has to exist.

2. This deep bass must be recorded in stereo.

3.  A left and right channel sub needs to be setup, and

4. You need to be able to localize bass frequency tones below  80 Hz.

      Pending the validity of your Spotify list, I don't currently believe any of these conditions have been yet met.
       Fortunately however, none of this matters if you do the following:

1.  Play any music recording with bass content down to 20 Hz.
2.  This bass must be summed to mono as the overwhelming majority of commercially available recordings already are.
3.  All your subs are run in mono mode and positioned in the room for optimum bass response at your listening seat.

4.  You will not be able to localize any of the deep bass coming from any of your subs but you'll still perceive the deep bass as stereo, with the deep bass seeming to originate from the proper instrument in the sound stage image illusion.  
     This is possible because the fundamental deep bass tones down to 20 Hz  and under 80 Hz, which we cannot localize, are being reproduced by the subs in mono.  But the deep bass harmonics or overtones of the deep bass fundamental tones which reach above the 80 Hz threshold, which we can localize,  are being reproduced by your main speakers in stereo.  
     You'll be able to perceive the deep bass as stereo bass because our amazing brains are able to associate the bass harmonics or overtones coming from your main stereo speakers with the much deeper bass fundamental tones coming from your subs.  
     It all works like a charm and works with any recording whether the bass extends below 20 Hz and recorded in stereo or not.  For example, the double bass will be perceived as being positioned at the front left of the sound stage image and the drums will be perceived as being positioned at the rear center of the sound stage image with solid and stable image illusions.
     
 
  

            
     
   

 

Everything Tim posted is right, especially this one bit here:

 You will not be able to localize any of the deep bass coming from any of your subs but you'll still perceive the deep bass as stereo, with the deep bass seeming to originate from the proper instrument in the sound stage image illusion.  

This seems almost contradictory. But it is true. Emphatically.

My system  https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 is set up with 2 Dayton amps and I have tested all possible setup combinations- including stereo and mono. There is no difference running stereo vs mono. In fact just about everything else makes a difference EXCEPT stereo/mono.

Yet this is emphatically NOT to say the bass does not SEEM to be in stereo. 

There is a whole recording angle involved here I'm not even going into. Just read the comments I have made and the comment Mike posted after his visit. The bass comes from everywhere and nowhere, and is perfectly integrated with the sound stage. 

Recording after recording the bass with my DBA has all the character and imaging as everything else from the midrange on up- whether or not the subs are run stereo or mono.

Trust me on this- not only do the subs disappear, but when you get it right all the speakers and the whole freaking room disappears.