The bass is the place...

well, why is the bass the place manufacturer cuts down?
for real bass, you need woofer, big ones (think minimum dual 10 inch or 12 inch woofer). A big woofer need a big box, which drive the price of the cabinet manufacturer up; shipping price is dramatically increase as the weight and size of the box increase. so really, in order to build a "real" speaker that actually can do bass at loud spl, you need to sell that speaker much more pricey then say a 2-way using a 7 inch woofer in a 20L cab vs a 12 inch woofer in a 100L cab.

and that is without even mentioning the fact that for it to sound integrated, a 12 or 15 inch woofer generally needs to be integrated in a 3 way system or used with a horn to make that system to work in most cases (Ill keep the bbc ls5/8 out of the conversation)

so yeah, real bass drive the price of building a speaker up,up, up.

imo, 2-ways with sub cannot compete with a speaker using 12 inch woofers.

To keep the speakers from boxy coloration when digging deep they have to be constructed much differently than a speaker handing off to a subwoofer. Look at how exotic manufacturers are getting to help control resonances and you can see where a lot of the money goes, bending multiple layers of wood, testing different epoxy, then the volume of sales isn't large enough to make up design and trial costs. I'm not excusing the stupid markup on hi end products, but look at the square boxes we were being offered 20 years ago and compare them to the oval shaped 6 layer... then the metal or ceramic drivers that require mucho amplification and alternative's like 2 way + subs becomes the path of least resistance.

@daveyf --

Seems like that most speaker manufacturer’s are able to deliver a speaker that can, and mostly does, a reasonable job in the highs and the mids, BUT the bass is where so many fall down! This is also what most manufacturers ask big money for...the more bass capability the higher the asking price. So, we are left with, at least IMHO, most speakers that really cannot produce accurate and extended bass with any real precision. Your thoughts? Why is the bass the place?

@steve59 --

To keep the speakers from boxy coloration when digging deep they have to be constructed much differently than a speaker handing off to a subwoofer. Look at how exotic manufacturers are getting to help control resonances and you can see where a lot of the money goes, bending multiple layers of wood, testing different epoxy, then the volume of sales isn't large enough to make up design and trial costs. I'm not excusing the stupid markup on hi end products, but look at the square boxes we were being offered 20 years ago and compare them to the oval shaped 6 layer... then the metal or ceramic drivers that require mucho amplification and alternative's like 2 way + subs becomes the path of least resistance.

I thought I'd let both of above quoted posts form the basis of my reply.

Money is indeed what's gotten into this, seeing speakers coming anywhere near not merely being full-range, but having overall bass capacity as well. And yet, very few - like, incredibly few of these very expensive speakers have any real bass potency or, well, realness to speak of. These expensive and exotic enclosures with their fancy bracing and layers of what not, I'm sorry to say (that is: no, I'm not actually), hardly amounts to anything substantial in and by itself. Trying to act like information below the Schroeder frequency should be overrun with the refinement tricks offered for the range above it is dodging the requirements of physics big time. But hey, making these expensive and obscenely heavy enclosures aids the sense of exclusivity and the narrative that killing resonances at any cost matters (not that it doesn't to some degree). 

Let physics have its say; forget about the insanely expensive "full-range" speakers, and instead go subs - DBA or at least dual, go BIG and even horns if you dare, and seek out those who care more about their product in the most unpretentious of ways than the ones knee-deep in their marketing efforts. Not least, be prepared to go the DIY-route as an alternative (i.e.: a very good one), even though we've heard manufacturers and other individuals blabber on about how DIY is just a sorry excuse for the real deal (their deal, of course). DIY IS the real deal where bass goes, as you can seek out excellent designs for free, and make them as big and in the numbers that's required for a fair amount of money.

Of course, this is very much a question of mentality; do we buy their marketing and "high-end" B.S. they're eager to shove down out throats, or go the independent route and let physics do the actual talking?

imo, 2-ways with sub cannot compete with a speaker using 12 inch woofers.

Then you do not want to hear this. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367
This will rock your world.

millercarbon3,826 posts04-16-2020 1:28pm

imo, 2-ways with sub cannot compete with a speaker using 12 inch woofers.

What if the 2 way uses a 12"?


Then you do not want to hear this. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367
This will rock your world.

millercarbon your running a two way?

Am I missing something here? I’m all confused..

Regards