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2020 update : JC Verdier La Platine

A recent encounter with a JC Verdier dealer as well as a recent Audiogon discussion thread led to the start of this thread. He was in my house updating my La Platine which had been in storage for ten years with thread and oil. While he has high regards for the deck, his newer clients nevertheless prefer a Techdas iii than an 'old' La Platine. Given the proliferation of expensive decks in the past dozen years, La Platine has become very much under-appreciated. 

It's clear to me that the influence of the La Platine is everywhere to be found. Specifically, the magnetic suspension system that was employed 30+ years ago. Even SOTA offers their newer decks with mag. lev. features. And if you read this review: https://www.callas-audio.nl/Callas%20Platine%20Mod%20Kit%20Review.pdf, the Continuum Caliburn uses the same concept, which was not acknowledged in Fremer's review, albeit with more sophisticated , and expensive, execution.

It is also clear to me that there is much misunderstanding of the workings of the La Platine. I for one have contributed to this. The motor of the La Platine, for example, has been much maligned. The thread drive is another aspect of the turntable that have been described as inferior. With regard to the motor and thread drive, I have been set straight by Chris @ct0517 and Lyubomir @lbelchev. Experimenting with the different types of silk threads, the tightness to the platter  and a renewed understanding of the soundness of the Philips motor have been rewarded with better dynamics and transparency. 

The funny thing is that during the past two years of re-engagement with audio, I have questioned ownership of every components in my arsenal except the La Platine. It has always been a keeper. I wonder if La Platine owners would contribute to celebrating this 'old' deck with tales, advice, and insights?

Cheers!
ledoux1238
ledoux1238 OP
303 posts
 
@vuckovic  Some of your tweaks and preferences are quite different from mine. But as my last post indicated, this is a TT that seems to invite differences of operational preferences. 

Using the stock motor with a custom Delrin pulley to accomodate a tape drive is novel to me. I had thought that thread drive with a more accurate motion was the way to go. 

The most interesting is your spindle ball comments. The interaction of the ball with the platter would take some force off the magnetic repulsion,  increasing bass performance and overall dynamics. This is consistent with a review I read regarding the Callas Audio Mod Kit. The Mod Kit was used to reduce the magnetic levitation forces in order to improve bass performance. The reviewer also made reference to the The Caliburn table with similar principles. 

Finally, as one who owns both the Airforce 3 and the La Platine, I wondered if you might share some thoughts of the two table. I started this post because a local audio dealer mentioned that nowadays given a choice between a La Platine and a TechDas, his clients mostly prefers the latter. He thought that was a pity as the La Platine was as worthy a TT. I would appreciate some insights.
ct0517's avatar
ct0517
2,041 posts
 
ledoux1238
Somehow the combination of concrete, raisin, and stone chips doesn't seem to be a good resonance damper. I would like to be enlightened.


You are forgetting about the the Air Albert.

The resonance of the plinth with its suspension is about 5Hz and it is well absorbed by the air cavities. JC Verdier

Removing the pneumatic feet defeats the design.

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re; the motor

the stock motor gearing can be heard continuing after it is shut off. It reminds of a watch one winds up and one of the reasons, I assume, speed stability remains when I shut it off and on.

Your rotation numbers I am not sure of.
Going by memory (I am not at the property) when motor is shut off the gearing can be heard continuing and the platter spins for close to thirty seconds before coming to a stop. When it is running and the thread is cut, the time  to stoppage is much.much shorter. Braking action very evident.

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fyi et al
Before I even considered La Platine I was attempting to build an ultimate turntable with the direct drive project. I went through various stages. The next version would have replaced the Technics square casing with a Denon circular one. But then I discovered thread drive with the modded - VPI TNT.
Decoupling of components is important. My ET 2.5 tonearm air bearing spindle that holds the armtube/cartridge at one and counterweights at the other, was already isolated / decoupled with a film of air 360 degrees. No mechanical contact.
The Direct Drive mdf layered plinth with pneumatic footers was decoupled from the platform it sits on with the AT616 footers.  The casing for the motor platter system I attempted to decouple using 4 stainless steel legs. Raising it high with only 4 contact points. I moved to this after I realized all platters/motors encased in plinths color the sound. Many search for the right "color" in materials . 8^0.
The Tonearm brass pillar (20 plus pounds) attached to the plinth raises the ET 2.5 and allows for a happy face loop of single shot wiring.

When I became aware of La Platine, I saw it as a natural extension and progression of my own project, plus it had the decoupled and raised platter system. I could never ever have imagined this on my own efforts. Most importantly, it was designed as a thread design from the get go, not a modified belt drive like my TNT. I was not aware of the braking system at the time.

Cheers 
Stay Safe, Social Distancing, Stay Healthy 

vuckovic's avatar
vuckovic
23 posts
 
Sorry Ledoux1238 for late response - too busy elsewhere. It is difficult for me to give you exact difference between AF-3P and La Platine. I have many arms and cartridges and until you do not put the same combo on both TT you can not be sure about direct A-B outcome. I moved last week Glanz MH-124s and VdH Colibri MS from Verdier to AF and got some conclusions which mirror my previous experience with AF.
AF-3P is much more quieter. This brings more transparency, more details and bigger soundstage. AF is also more dynamic and more neutral. Verdier is smoother with more body and more darker - some people would say - more natural. But do not forget that this is very tweaked Verdier. Last year I got from my friend another Verdier motor with battery power supply made by Graham Tricker ( Tron ). Since I put Mylar tape on my Verdier I have never compared it with regular belt and metal pulley. I liked it from the beginning and did not care - you can read impression about it in my previous post. But when I got Graham motor I tried rubber, original thread and some special fishing string as a belt again before I changed it to Delrin pulley and mylar tape. Difference was huge and striking. The highs were so dirty and compressed! I could not believe it. I measured speed (3150hz) and W&F ( 0.07% ) using AnalogMagik software. The only conclusion would be that these tiny thread and string transmitted huge noise to platter! Hard to believe but it is my experience. Another advice for Verdier fans would be to use use the shortest length of belt possible which should not be tight in tension. Platter should be mostly turn from its own weight inertia.
AF-3P is engineering marvel. Simple, beautiful, easy to operate - real jewel! From my experience it is the best sounding TechDAS model regardless the price. Better than any old Micro as well. The only TT I would go after AF-3P would be Karmeli’s American Sound AS-2000. I think Dave helped TechDAS in developing 3P. Very similar designs but AS-2000 is a piece of art!
In conclusion - AF is better but much more expensive than Verdier. If money is not object I would go with AF. In case you have to save money to afford it - forget AF. Keep Verdier and enjoy your life. I would rather take La Platine than ANY TW Akustic or Brinkmann....





dover
2,278 posts
 
But when I got Graham motor I tried rubber, original thread and some special fishing string as a belt again before I changed it to Delrin pulley and mylar tape. Difference was huge and striking. The highs were so dirty and compressed! I could not believe it. I measured speed (3150hz) and W&F ( 0.07% ) using AnalogMagik software. The only conclusion would be that these tiny thread and string transmitted huge noise to platter! Hard to believe but it is my experience.

From my experience of owning the Platine Verdier, the motor is the issue.
It is tiny, and not really designed for side loads on the spindle. Ultimately it will generate noise, which is transmitted via the belt. No doubt the delrin pulley helped you in this case. If you ran a double pulley, with a flywheel mounted on the opposite side of the pulley from the platter, you could reduce motor noise by "balancing the load" on the motor spindle.

By the way, I remounted my Verdier motor into a cradle clamp arrangement inside the main housing and eliminated the rubber mounts. This enabled me to reduce the motor noise significantly by reducing noise from the motor case itself by carefully tuned clamping. I replaced the rubber mounts with teflon washers. This arrangement also improved speed stability.

As a test to get a handle on the performance of the motor, I ran my Final Audio Parthenon AC motor and controller, driven by a 60wpc power amp on the Verdier in a trial ( both with thread drive ) - the improvement in timing and drop in noise floor were significant. The Final AC motor is dead silent, even though its about 4/5 times larger, it has a proper machined spindle, oilite bushes, thrust pad arrangement.


ledoux1238 OP
303 posts
 
@vuckovic Thank you for that concise summary of the AF3. It solves a year old curiosity about the sonic differences between it and La Platine. Rereading reviews of the AF3, I am struck by the contrast between the two. With the AF3, you are operating in highly controlled environment. There is even provision for a spacer dictating the correct distance between motor and plinth! And despite the sonic advantages of the AF3, you have decided to keep the La Platine. I think it speaks more for the French deck. And you are right, I won't be saving up for the AF3.

I am still in the tweaking phase. And in my last post, I have serious doubt as to a substantial 'braking' force acting on the platter. The platter is  spinning on its own inertia if not acted upon by any drive material. In order to allow the platter to do its thing, there should be as minimal a force acting on it as possible. This is what you have found with the loose drive material and short distance between motor and platter. This observation is consistent with mine.

What is most interesting is your arriving at better SQ with the tape drive. Tape has the best combination of least friction and better control of the platter? Definitely an avenue worthy of exploration. I was going to investigate a Tron motor, but perhaps a Delrin pulley or a Galibier motor using tape drive? 

@dover Your post should be underlined with 'It's the motor, stupid!'. I have reluctantly come to this only very lately. 

@ct0517 Chris, thanks for that short excursion into your analog world. I find your table fascinating. Even more so, your experimentations on the ET 2.5 are inspirational!!
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