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Hear my Cartridges....🎶

Many Forums have a 'Show your Turntables' Thread or 'Show your Cartridges' Thread but that's just 'eye-candy'.... These days, it's possible to see and HEAR your turntables/arms and cartridges via YouTube videos.
Peter Breuninger does it on his AV Showrooms Site and Michael Fremer does it with high-res digital files made from his analogue front ends.
Now Fremer claims that the 'sound' on his high-res digital files captures the complex, ephemeral nuances and differences that he hears directly from the analogue equipment in his room.
That may well be....when he plays it through the rest of his high-end setup 😎
But when I play his files through my humble iMac speakers or even worse.....my iPad speakers.....they sound no more convincing than the YouTube videos produced by Breuninger.
Of course YouTube videos struggle to capture 'soundstage' (side to side and front to back) and obviously can't reproduce the effects of the lowest octaves out of subwoofers.....but.....they can sometimes give a reasonably accurate IMPRESSION of the overall sound of a system.

With that in mind.....see if any of you can distinguish the differences between some of my vintage (and modern) cartridges.
VICTOR X1
This cartridge is the pinnacle of the Victor MM designs and has a Shibata stylus on a beryllium cantilever. Almost impossible to find these days with its original Victor stylus assembly but if you are lucky enough to do so.....be prepared to pay over US$1000.....🤪
VICTOR 4MD-X1
This cartridge is down the ladder from the X1 but still has a Shibata stylus (don't know if the cantilever is beryllium?)
This cartridge was designed for 4-Channel reproduction and so has a wide frequency response 10Hz-60KHz.
Easier to find than the X1 but a lot cheaper (I got this one for US$130).
AUDIO TECHNICA AT ML180 OCC
Top of the line MM cartridge from Audio Technica with Microline Stylus on Gold-Plated Boron Tube cantilever.
Expensive if you can find one....think US$1000.

I will be interested if people can hear any differences in these three vintage MM cartridges....
Then I might post some vintage MMs against vintage and MODERN LOMC cartridges.....🤗
128x128halcro
dover
2,271 posts
 
Observations -

Victor XI - enoyable to listen to but horribly coloured. Enjoyment wears off rapidly due to the colourations.

Sony XL88D - wondered why it sounded so grainy, then I went to the start and confirmed Victor/SAEC combo. Sorry Halcro - this cartridge in my view needs to go on the Cobra/Raven. Bucketloads of musical detail, nuance, but grain prevented enjoyment. If you cant put it on the Cobra, try the Dynavector. I think you will find the Dynavector puts flesh on the bones and much more solid foundation than the SAEC. The XL88D was mounted on my TT in the early 80's - the SAEC/Audiocraft arms were easily surpassed by the Dynavector/Sony combo. ( see TAS vol 8 June 1983 ).

Decca - most enjoyable

Palladium - disappointing on this track. Seems coloured, closed in, lacking openness.

Many have difficulty understanding those of us who have multiple cartridges (let alone multiple turntables and arms) as most people assume that you would listen only to the BEST cartridge in any collection.
As an owner of many cartridges/arms/turntables, I would temper that by saying that the various combos have to be to a common standard. I find in practise that if a cartridge is too coloured or idiosyncratic, I lose interest in listening.

I don't hold the view that there is a single 'BEST' cartridge out of the thousands that have been produced over the last 50 years or so 🤔
True, nothings perfect, but in sifting through the options I look for musical enjoyment, and least distruction of musical timbre, timing etc.

Very few do it in reverse and change out an 'old' MC to replace it with a 'new' MM design....

I did. After following Rauls MM/MC thread for some time I purchased a Victor X1 ( mint with original cantilever/stylus ) and Glanz MFG61. Dont listen to either of them any more.
The only non MC's I would listen to long term would be the Decca and upper end of Soundsmith range which I like.

halcro's avatar
halcro OP
2,664 posts
 
Thanks for the interesting comments Dover 🤔
I don't think I hear the same things as you do....or perhaps, I don't perceive them the same way...?
When you say the Victor X-1II is "horribly coloured".....I perceive it as a typically 'MM presentation' compared to that of a MC.
Bob and the ladies are pushed back towards the band compared to the forward projection of them with the Sony XL-88D.
There is also a 'rounding off' and softening of his voice in comparison again with the Sony.....
Whilst you elect to call it "coloured".....I hear it as 'added presence' and 'midrange body' which the typical MC cartridge rarely gets right.
The extended 'detail' with the percussion (particularly on the edges) is to me, just a common 'trick' of most MCs intended to impress the listeners and convince them that they are hearing more information....🤥
If you listen carefully......you're not 🤗
Enjoyment with the Victor, for me....doesn't wear off.

Your comments re: the Sony XL-88D are more puzzling.....
Firstly, I simply don't hear "the grain" you mention 😶
Last year, when you heard the Sony XL-88D in the heavy FR-S3 headshell on the SAEC Tonearm, you commented:
Then comparing the Sony XL88D to the Decca - wow. More transparent and the majesty of the performance and the completeness of the full orchestral spectrum conveyed by the Sony is fabulous. There appears to be more chest/body with the choristers from the Decca, but the vocals from uppermids to top end on the Sony appear far more transparent. As the full orchestra comes in the Sony is simply wonderful, the most complete cartridge for me of the three..    

At this point I am done with comparisons - could you please just send me the Sony for Xmas. Now back to the music....
What has changed....?
dover
2,271 posts
 
@halcro 
Victor - it appears smoother here than my sample. On my system the Victor seems technicolored, as in false sharpness - oversatuated you might say if you were a photographer. On your demo it is easier to listen to. What I mean by coloured is it appears to sound warm and comfy, but lacks openness and upper frequency extension. Remember the old Quad filters where you could tip the top down and bottom up. I dont know the record, so I dont know if this is correct.

Sony XL88D sounds very grainy compared to your earlier demos. Maybe your VTA is out. I think we hear the same thing though - you describe it as "extended detail" to me sounds more open ( irrespective of actual detail ). Please check your tracking weight and VTA, somethings not right. I assume nothing else has changed in your system. Have you had other cartridges on the arm since we last heard the Sony ??

At least we can agree on the Decca, so all is not lost.

As an aside I have been rolling through a few cartridges on my FR64S lately, primarily to see whats worth keeping, and one learning was that it is so much easier to clean cartridges when you can take the headshell off. Honestly I dont think it is possible to properly clean a cartridge without removing it.
halcro's avatar
halcro OP
2,664 posts
 
As an aside I have been rolling through a few cartridges on my FR64S lately, primarily to see whats worth keeping, and one learning was that it is so much easier to clean cartridges when you can take the headshell off. Honestly I dont think it is possible to properly clean a cartridge without removing it.
I hear ya brother......
And you're not wrong 👍
Not only is it difficult to properly clean a cartridge whilst it's mounted in a tonearm....
It's impossible to INSPECT the condition of the stylus.
It's one thing to CLEAN your stylus....it's quite another to ENSURE the stylus has been properly cleaned 🧐
To do this....a minimum 60x LUPE is required.
With it's own LED LIGHTS you can see whether the 'crud' has been fully removed and whether the diamond is shiny.
Note: It won't be able to show whether the stylus is 'worn'. A professional microscope and experience is needed for that.

For years I have been using a soft-bristle brush to firstly wipe the stylus from front to back (as recommended) followed by a dip in MAGIC ERASER followed by a dip in ONZO ZERODUST.
It was only after the arrival of my 60xLupe that I saw the 'hairs' and 'dirt' often left on the stylus by the BRUSH 😱
This detritus was often difficult to remove even with the Magic Eraser and Zerodust so that a wet clean with Isopropyl Alcohol was the only successful remedy.
I now NEVER use a brush......
Only the Magic Eraser and Zerodust followed by the 60x Lupe inspection.
And this is done after EVERY listening session.....🤗
justmetoo's avatar
justmetoo
381 posts
 
@halcro OP
Just as an aside really, as I'd endeavoured to listen to your various presentations - they sound rather 'unfavourable' when I compare them to those YouTube offerings of e.g. @whitecamaro. 

Yet people even on this amp thread had their own mentioning as regards to room and microphone used, and the resulting effects. 
I'm using the same listening tool(s) so... 

In short, could it be, your mic/setup could be improved to achieve some better over-all sound quality? 🤔 
M. 🇿🇦 
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