Full Range speakers for a living space


First (and long) post- sorry.

I know there is a similar thread going at the moment about NICE looking speakers, but I don't want to hijack that thread with my question.

I don't have a listening room, and nor do I want one, I love listening to music, with my wife (and friends - when the world returns to 'normal') in our living room [17.5' x 11.5' at the narrowest - but it the room opens out a few more feet. Ceilings are 13').

Sources are Aurender and Michell Gyrodec (with Dynavector Karat). Audia Flight phono, VTL 5.5 II pre and Gamut D200i power. All cables are Synergistic R Atmosphere L2
Current speakers are JM Reynaud Abscisse.

When I lived in the UK I had amps by Audiolab, Naim and Exposure, and I had various models of ProAc speakers.

My current system is better in most ways in comparison to those previous systems, the treble is sweater, the midrange is more open and detailed and the bass,midrange and treble are well integrated. However I don't feel the soundstage is enveloping as I would like. Nor can I pinpoint exactly where the musicians are. The lower range does not extend as far as I would like. And I just feel that a certain dynamism (I guess some would call it PRAT) feels lacking.

I am pretty certain I can improve on the first 3 of these with a change in speakers. I think my tube preamp may be affecting the PRAT, but I really do love the midrange I get, so I am aiming to stick with my VTL for now.

My music taste is principally rock: 60s classic psychedelia, 70's classic rock, 80's rock and synth-wave (think Depeche Mode) and almost the entire Metal spectrum from the originals (Black Sabbath) through the mainstream classics (Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, Motorhead) all the way to modern Thrash, Doom and Black Metal. I also listen to classic EDM (Underworld, Chemical Brothers), Roots, Rocker and Dub Reggae and old school hip hop. Music that never gets played is female vocal, Jazz, classical, MOR Pop (except Neil Diamond after too much wine), AOR and especially Prog-Rock (Yes, ELP)

Given the dropped guitar and bass tunings in a lot of metal and how deep synth-bass can go I am thinking I need speakers that can go down to 24,25,26 Hz. Anything lower might overload my room.

Now comes the really hard part: I have specifics about the looks and placement of the speakers, because the room is still my living room so I really do not want a pair of Wilson Sophias sat in the middle of it :
1) I really do not want the FRONT of the speaker to me more than 3' from the front wall
2) I really do not want BLACK speakers
3) I would really prefer to have speakers that are stylish (which I know is subjective), but basically I am trying to avoid a simple tall rectangle
4) Budget is $15,000 new or used, in fact I have a preference for used since even the greatest speakers depreciate significantly the moment the original owner opens their crates - and I accept that this makes auditioning with my kit impossible - which is partly why I am reaching out for help.

So I have been thinking that sealed, TL, isobaric or bottom-ported speakers might help me get bass extension with room friendly placement. Thoughts so far are:
- Sonus Faber Armati (might be too deep physically)
- T+A Criterion
- Neat acoustics Ultimatum XL6 or XL10 (although these are tall rectangles)
- Egglestonworks Nine
- Lawrence Audio Double Bass (available in wood finish so I am told)
- Piega Coax 711 (interesting in silver aluminum)
- Paradigm persona 7F
- YG acoustics Kipod signature (passive and in silver - very hard to find one)

Obviously a Magico S3 M-Coat would be a fantastic option, but they are not within budget

If anyone has experiences with these speakers with a similar set-up to me or with similar music I would love to hear feedback and I am especially looking for ideas and feedback on speakers that might suit me. Thank you in advance for your assistance.

Ian.



Ag insider logo xs@2xianellis
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Twoleftears wrote:

" Enveloping soundstage vs. speakers close to wall behind them=pretty much mutually exclusive."

"Pretty much" yes, but perhaps not quite entirely, "mutually exclusive". So I agree with you.

Acoustician David Griesinger was speaking about good seats in good concert halls when he wrote the following about "envelopment", and imo it’s useful, relevant information:

"Envelopment is perceived when the ear and brain can detect TWO separate streams: A foreground stream of direct sound, and a background stream of reverberation. Both streams must be present if sound is perceived as enveloping."

Implicit is a time delay in between the arrival of the direct sound and the strong onset of reverberation. Obviously this time delay will be different in a home audio setting than in a concert hall, but ime the general principle is still applicable.

When designing a listening space, acousticians will typically work to manage reflections such that early reflections are minimized, but without eliminating the reverberant energy which arrives somewhat later. In other words, acousticians are into this time delay separating the direct from reverberant energy, showing that it applies to small rooms as well as concert halls.

When the criteria for envelopment are met in a home listening environment - "a foreground stream of direct sound, and a background stream of reverberation" - we can enjoy both clarity AND envelopment (assuming there are no other significant problems). When there is insufficient time delay between the direct sound and the strong onset of reflections, clarity is degraded and envelopment doesn’t happen. This is why dipole owners like to pull their speakers well out into the room - the path length for the backwave imposes sufficient time delay before its arrival at the listening area.

Now there are of course major differences between the acoustic signature of a space where music is created (like a concert hall) and one where music is re-created (a home listening room). In our home listening rooms, in effect there is a competition between the spaciousness of the acoustic signature on the recording (whether it be real or engineered), and the inherent "small room signature" of the room we’re playing back that recording in. The ear will select whichever combination of cues seem the most plausible, and all too often the "small room signature" is dominant, especially when the speakers are quite close to the wall behind them. The ear can usually sense the presence of that wall.

But it is the earliest reflections which most strongly convey undesirable "small room signature". If we can minimize those early reflections while preserving the later ones through a combination of radiation pattern control and aiming those radiation patterns intelligently, we can tip the scales in favor of the acoustic signature of the recording venue. Then ear is able to pick out the decaying reverberation of the recording venue from the in-room reflections, without the playback room’s signature dominating.

In other words imo it is possible to have enveloping soundstage AND speakers close to the wall behind them at the same time, though doing so falls into the category of "things easier said than done". I think I know how to do it, but thus far not without rectangles.

Duke
If you are looking for an immersive soundstage, Scansonic/Raidho would be my first choice.  The issue is the depth of bass you are looking for is a challenge.  Is there a reason why adding a subwoofer is not an option?  You and I have very similar taste.  I use Run to the Hills as a demo song.  

Check out the Scansonic MB6 Bs.  I listened to these side by side with Magico S1 MK2s and they blew them out of the water.  They are available in white but will have the black metal baffle and will go to 27hz.  This meets your needs in one box and 3' from rear wall is not an issue in the slightest. 

Alternatively, you could go with a smallish floorstander (I assume that is your preferred aesthetic) and add a subwoofer to fill in below a certain frequency range.  Subs don't have to be huge.  REL and JL make very musical subs that are smallish and won't be obtrusive in your room.  

Personally, I prefer standmounts with a sub as I find in a relatively untreated room it is rare to find the optimal placement for bass and midrange reproduction is the same.  And my wife literally laughed out loud when I showed her the treatments that would work.  I basically started my speaker company and produce standmount speaker because of her.  She wanted a minimalist design that sounded like a $30K that we could afford.  
@zephyr24069 You've obviously come to the same conclusion as so many of us who are invested in this hobby.  Legacy speakers are giant killers, especially from the Calibire all the way up the line.  Once you hear that sound with the wavelet room correction, you can't go back.  

I invite people over to audition my system all the time and they are floored. Legacy Speakers, Wavelet room correction, McGary Audio tube amps, and MicroZOTL preamps.  It's a system that gives me goosebumps and makes me laugh out loud at the blatant perfection all the time.
@alexbpm,...most definitely! I've been a Legacy customer and fan for 15 years.  Been to Axpona, been to Munich HIGH END and Hifideluxe,....nothing I liked better or that was ever more realistic or more musical to me than Legacy! It's fun to hit the shows and also hear other audio friend's systems but returning home to my system is always the best part!