atmasphereI think the quotes I provided speak for themselves. I'm comfortable with letting each reader decide this matter for himself.
@cleeds I think if you reread these comments above you will see that I was correct ...
Help me understand "the swarm" in the broader audiophile world
I'm still fairly new out here and am curious about this Swarm thing. I've never owned a subwoofer but I find reading about them--placement, room treatments, nodes, the crawl, etc--fascinating. I'm interested in the concept of the Swarm and the DEBRA systems, and I have a very specific question. The few times I've been in high-end, audiophile stores and asked about the concept of the Swarm, I've tended to get some eye-rolling. They're selling single or paired subwoofers that individually often cost more and sometimes much more than a quartet of inexpensive, modest subs. The same thing can be said for many speaker companies that make both speakers and subs; it's not like I see Vandersteen embracing the use of four Sub 3's.
My question is this: do in fact high-end stores embrace the concept of multiple, inexpensive subs? If not, cynicism aside, why not? Or why doesn't Vandersteen or JL or REL and so on design their own swarm? For those out here who love multiple subs, is it a niche thing? Is it a certain kind of sound that is appealing to certain ears? The true believers proselytize with such zeal that I find it intriguing and even convincing, and yet it's obviously a minority of listeners who do it, even those who have dedicated listening rooms. (I'm talking about the concept of four+ subs, mixed and matched, etc. I know plenty of folks who embrace two subs. And I may be wrong about all my assumptions here--really.)
Now, one favor, respectfully: I understand the concept and don't need to be convinced of why it's great. That's all over literally every post on this forum that mentions the word "sub." I'm really interested in why, as far as I can tell, stores and speaker companies (and maybe most audiophile review sites?) mostly don't go for it--and why, for that matter, many audiophiles don't either (putting aside the obvious reason of room limits). Other than room limitations, why would anyone buy a single JL or REL or Vandy sub when you could spend less and get ... the swarm?
My question is this: do in fact high-end stores embrace the concept of multiple, inexpensive subs? If not, cynicism aside, why not? Or why doesn't Vandersteen or JL or REL and so on design their own swarm? For those out here who love multiple subs, is it a niche thing? Is it a certain kind of sound that is appealing to certain ears? The true believers proselytize with such zeal that I find it intriguing and even convincing, and yet it's obviously a minority of listeners who do it, even those who have dedicated listening rooms. (I'm talking about the concept of four+ subs, mixed and matched, etc. I know plenty of folks who embrace two subs. And I may be wrong about all my assumptions here--really.)
Now, one favor, respectfully: I understand the concept and don't need to be convinced of why it's great. That's all over literally every post on this forum that mentions the word "sub." I'm really interested in why, as far as I can tell, stores and speaker companies (and maybe most audiophile review sites?) mostly don't go for it--and why, for that matter, many audiophiles don't either (putting aside the obvious reason of room limits). Other than room limitations, why would anyone buy a single JL or REL or Vandy sub when you could spend less and get ... the swarm?
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audiokinesis Cleeds, can you articulate the core of what your objection is? THAT might be worth talking about, as we might be able to reach mutual understanding.I don't have any objection to swarm or DBA systems at all. None. Some of its advocates are effusive in their promotion and it looks pretty silly. That is all. |
tyray ... why do people on this site always verbally attack Duke for just being a businessman, entrepreneur and fellow Agon poster? ... all the keyboard internet negativity is not warranted and shows some lack of civility ... to attack Duke for trying to make a living everytime this subject comes up? Is nothing more but and act of hiding behind your moniker cowardice ... Don’t attack Duke ... are you guys just gonna flap your gums at Duke? ... I don't see anyone on this thread "attacking" Duke, so I really don't understand your indignation. |
Cleeds wrote: "I don’t have any objection to swarm or DBA systems at all. None. Some of its advocates are effusive in their promotion and it looks pretty silly. That is all." I understand. Thank you for clarifying. "I don’t see anyone on this thread "attacking" Duke, so I really don’t understand your indignation." Tyray stuck his neck out for me, and I appreciate it. Duke |
@mitch2, It took me a very long time to wrap my head around having more than 2 subs. I was from the school that says you always put your subs in the corners about 6 inches or less from the walls in symmetrical positions. And you only need 2. When I first read the above excerpts I took the sub farthest away from the mains and put it in the middle of the opposing wall. I then took the sub that was closest to the mains and turned it 45 degrees. Well to my surprise they did sound better. Then reading more in agon Duke did suggest to the things he told you to do with your subs, then I can't remember if it was Duke on some other reading but 'if you can raise one up towards the ceiling'. What! So after about 30 seconds of trying figure out how to get a 60lb sub up to the ceiling I started to think out of box as it were as to the typical placements of subs in only the corner that we are so used to doing. I had an old SVS sub in the closet to make a total of 3 subs and put it on the back in the middle of the wall. I borrowed a smaller smaller sub to put on the highest shelf in the back of the room. It made a difference. Was it a swarm? No but it did open up my thinking just a little more of having 4 subs placed in my listening/tv room. Now all this didn't just happen overnight as I had to get F connectors and cable and hook everything up. When it was suggested I put a sub up towards the ceiling, I didn't think this s**t would work and almost didn't try it. I'm glad I did. And to this day I don't own the swarm for the same reasons you don't own the swarm. I already had money invested in subs. But the science does work. |
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