2. speakers
  3. 159915-139027

Help me understand "the swarm" in the broader audiophile world

I'm still fairly new out here and am curious about this Swarm thing. I've never owned a subwoofer but I find reading about them--placement, room treatments, nodes, the crawl, etc--fascinating. I'm interested in the concept of the Swarm and the DEBRA systems, and I have a very specific question. The few times I've been in high-end, audiophile stores and asked about the concept of the Swarm, I've tended to get some eye-rolling. They're selling single or paired subwoofers that individually often cost more and sometimes much more than a quartet of inexpensive, modest subs. The same thing can be said for many speaker companies that make both speakers and subs; it's not like I see Vandersteen embracing the use of four Sub 3's. 

My question is this: do in fact high-end stores embrace the concept of multiple, inexpensive subs? If not, cynicism aside, why not? Or why doesn't Vandersteen or JL or REL and so on design their own swarm? For those out here who love multiple subs, is it a niche thing? Is it a certain kind of sound that is appealing to certain ears? The true believers proselytize with such zeal that I find it intriguing and even convincing, and yet it's obviously a minority of listeners who do it, even those who have dedicated listening rooms. (I'm talking about the concept of four+ subs, mixed and matched, etc. I know plenty of folks who embrace two subs. And I may be wrong about all my assumptions here--really.)

Now, one favor, respectfully: I understand the concept and don't need to be convinced of why it's great. That's all over literally every post on this forum that mentions the word "sub." I'm really interested in why, as far as I can tell, stores and speaker companies (and maybe most audiophile review sites?) mostly don't go for it--and why, for that matter, many audiophiles don't either (putting aside the obvious reason of room limits). Other than room limitations, why would anyone buy a single JL or REL or Vandy sub when you could spend less and get ... the swarm? 


northman
noble100's avatar
noble100
2,419 posts
 
Hello millercarbon,

      I bet our room bass qualities are very close.  I was so concerned the bass traps might detract from my DBA's bass quality, I was initially going to delete all the bass traps from GIK's plan for my room.  There was a lot of them and those GIK bass traps aren't cheap.  I know the DBA concept works perfectly with no bass traps at all and the absolute last thing I wanted to do is detract from its high quality bass in any way.  
      I believe anyone who's personally experienced the DBA's performance would feel the same way.  I've never really liked the idea of bass traps and these are the first I've ever used; they've never made much sense to me.  Your system produces bass and then the bass traps reduces it?  Huh?  It's always reminded me of running the AC with the windows open. 
      I know it's more complex than that, I probably just don't completely understand the acoustic dynamics at work and they could be the reason my system's performance from the midrange on up, along with sound stage imaging, has never sounded better.  I'm trusting some experts, GIK and Duke. they haven't steered me wrong yet and overall I'm very pleased with my GIK investment.

Later,
Tim
noble100's avatar
noble100
2,419 posts
 
veerossi:
" I'm at a point where I have the gear I want and I have setup my speakers to the best of my ability. Room treatment is my next project. I know you went the GIK route. Sounds like all went well. What do you think about Acousticfields vs GIK vs others? What made you go GIK?"

Hello veerossi,
       I checked out the Acousticfields' website and their products seem to be of very high quality.  I think I considered them when I was looking for a room treatment vendor but thought they were a bit on the expensive side and I didn't know if the premium prices were justified.  I noticed they also offer a free room analysis just like GIK.
     I went with GIK mainly because a lot of members here seemed to like their performance, I liked their variety of treatments, especially the canvas art panels my wife really liked (which was important to me since it's her living room, too.) and they seemed like high quality treatments at reasonable prices.  I knew good quality treatments wouldn't be cheap but I wasn't looking to get fleeced, either. 
     Overall, I'm very pleased with the performance, fit and finish, customer service and total costs of the GIK products.  I'm not certain but I suspect the Acousticfields treatments are a step above the GIK in quality but also in price.  
     I'd suggest you take advantage of getting a free analysis from both companies, which will include a list of recommended products along with a total price quote, which will probably help with your decision.  This process also provides info on their customer service quality levels and differences along with the interesting and fun of comparing 2 complete and independent plans and strategies for your room.

Best wishes,
    Tim
brownsfan
1,508 posts
 
So I think most people would agree that addressing excess decay times (ringing) is as important or more important that flat frequency response.  I've added a good bit of range limited traps to my room which have helped substantially to reduce ringing.  Overall, the room is about 20% treated with the vast majority being range limited bass traps (GIK Soffit/Mega and Realtraps Mondo limp membranes) in the corners and front wall.

For those of you using DBA combined with room treatments, did you find that the DBA reduced ringing substantially without room treatments, or should I expect my Swarm to primarily rectify nulls at the MLP and expect that the traps will be required to achieve good decay times?

I guess my plan would be to remove room treatments and optimize the bass response without room treatment, then add back the bass traps judiciously to further improve frequency response and ringing.  BTW, mains are down 3 dB at 27 Hz, but I have decent response down to 20Hz or so.  Is that a reasonable approach?

Finally, I've read about the crawl approach to optimal placement on the Audiokinesis site, but I'm thinking of using REW to supplement what I hear.  Anyone find REW useful in Swarm sub placement?


hleeid
219 posts
 
@tyray
 Then reading more in agon Duke did suggest to the things he told you to do with your subs, then I can't remember if it was Duke on some other reading but 'if you can raise one up towards the ceiling'. What!

Yes, that was Duke who suggested raising one or more subs up towards the ceiling here on agon.

I had decided against the Swarm for my 10 x 12 room until I read the same posting.

It was in that small room that I used a metal shelving unit in each front corner to place a ceiling facing sub with about 4" clearance.

A third ceiling facing sub was mounted on a shelf above and behind my listening chair.

After minimal placement adjustments, I had really great bass response in the small room.

No other single sub worked.  I was literally in a state of awe and shock at how the 4 subs significantly improved my listening experience across different kinds of music at most any volume.

Now in the new house, with a bigger listening room (14 x 17) I have 2 subs on the floor but still have 2 up high facing the ceiling.

I agree with you about being glad you actually tried and elevated a sub.  It really does work!

The ceiling facing subs do noticeably contribute to the vertical plane dispersion. The shelf units in each front corner provide some diffusion and are great for housing gear too!

I have a monoblock at the bottom of each shelf unit which helped streamline the crowded gear rack between my mains.


audiokinesis
2,743 posts
 
Mahgister wrote:

"With acoustic ACTIVE devices controls and not only PASSIVE materials treatment, they gives me so much bass..."

"You forget Active acoustical device controls..."

"For example how do we use reverberations in a positive way to make the sound more alive with only a passive treatment? No way, it takes active acoustical control devices..."

"Active acoustic devices controls seems totally unknown"

"The easiest low cost way to improve bass is to improve the acoustical settings controls of the room not only passively but actively..."

You mention ACTIVE acoustical control devices many times, in this thread and elsewhere, and I don’t know what you are referring to.

Can you describe or explain what they are?

Duke
More to discover