2. amps-preamps
  3. 160627-89618

Proud Harbeth p3esr owner - need help tweaking/troubleshooting

Due to the pandemic I catch myself spending more time in my outdoor office space - small 14.5x7.5 feet room with glass windows on two adjacent walls - where the speaker are. It's got wood floors and a 7.5 feet ceiling. The other half has a large desk and a bookshelf. Since it's my private space I have decided to build 'my dream' audio system - different from my main listening room/home theater. I listen to all genres of music from 80's and 90's pop, Folk, Jazz, Electronic, Classic Rock and Latin. No hard Rock or headbangers music.

In my mid-40's and enjoying the audio hobby for decades now, I like my music warm, with non-fatigue listening for hours, where frequency tones are balanced, yet detailed without the grain and glare of vocal peaks or highs, yet presenting instrument separation. I want to enjoy the music. I took the leap, and purchased a pair of Harbeth p3esr. Also, purchased Croft Phone Integrated amplifier to pair with the speakers. Had a Metrum Onyx DAC at home already hooked to my Roon core. Using Morrow Audio MA1 RCA interconnects that were laying around, with Belden speaker wires also on hand. Speakers are on heavy 26 inch stands.

I have around 60 hours on the Croft integrated and Harbeth p3esr so far, but have not found the audio nirvana moment yet. I find the music at times (on certain songs) harsh. It's usually when multiple instruments are played together with sharp pitched vocals. Don't get me wrong - Emma Guzman - Woman the instrument separation and vocals are dreamy, The Game of Love by Daft Punk, the robotic vocals are life like with emotions - but 40 seconds into Wrong Girl by Lindsay Ell and you'll hear her vocals peak and want to run to lower the Croft integrated manual volume knob towards to noon mark (starting point). 

Speaking of which, the Croft Phono Integrated, being a superb hybrid amp, has a lot of gain and is immediate sounding. At 1 o'clock position (noon being the starting point), the sound is comfortable listening at 70db. Turning the volume knob to 2 o'clock it's gets loud to 80db + and 3 o'clock is where you want to turn it down. Never distortion - but enough sweetness and finesse to drive the p3. Loud for the room. 

Metrum DAC has a more or less standard line output level of 2V, and the Croft amp has a relatively sensitive input sensitivity of 250mV. An amp of this sensitivity runs the risk of clipping the voltage waveform before the power stage. Maybe alternative amps have a more relaxed gain structure at the input, sensitive to about a whole Volt. The reason why I am rushing for the volume control as the peas get harsh.

How do I make the famous Harbeth p3esr to sing and show it's true colors of warmth, composure, mature sound, astonishing vocal coming from the diaphragm and the details that it's famous for? How do I listen to hours of different genre music without the need to turn the volume low or move my head up to look at the speakers? Is it the high gain/sensitive Croft Integrated amp or is it the bright Morrow Audio RCA interconnect or maybe the speaker wires? Or maybe the whole set up is a dream and an overkill for the room.

Any feedback by the brilliant minds on this forum with years of experience would be greatly appreciated. With warm regards,

ghulamr
ghulamr's avatar
ghulamr OP
104 posts
 

Well I have more news for someone interested - today I took my office set up in my main listening room. First hooked up the Harbeth to the Croft integrated using the Metrum Onyx DAC and the same IC and speaker cables - so standard set up as in my office, but a different room. Adjusted the listening to 73 db of music listening to the same track - Milord by Edith Piaf. It sounded how it sounded (comments to follow).


Next I switched amps to my Sim Audio W5 power amp (180W/ch) and lost a lot of dynamics. It was definitely less bright but also more on the dull side missing instrument separation. Sound was more rounded with recessed vocals. So here I am thinking - wow the Croft is leaps ahead. Maybe it the tubes that makes it sing.


Next I hooked up my beefy Earthquake Cinenova amp. It's a monster that weighs 120 pounds with 300w/ch and built like a tank with 4kVA transformer. I was in utter shock to what I heard come out of those Harbeth's. That was a wow moment. The sound was dreamy, rich, warm, with instruments all around me. Lots of details, more fuller with vocals coming from inside the throat and not at all bright. Super musical - unearthing layers of music. I can go on and on and words will not do justice.


So there you have it. I wish I could lift the Earthquake amp and bring it in my office - but it's too big. Know for sure that Harbeth wants more power - bigger transformer, higher damping, regular sensitivity of 1.6V. It needs raw prowess. And I am returning my Croft Integrated amp as I know there is something better out there. Maybe go the route of power amp and pre.

For those who said Harbeths need more power - you all are right. Search begins for a power amp now - one that will easily sit on a shelf in my office. 
mike_in_nc
1,189 posts
 
Glad to hear it! I’m using 200/330 wpc into 8/4 ohms. Great sound!

You might experiment with something like the Benchmark AHB-2 amp. Compact and superb by all accounts.

Earlier, I suggested upsampling in Roon. Here’s the link.
jjss49's avatar
jjss49
6,612 posts
 
@ghulamr

a few comments

you are not discovering the p3’s need more power... you are discovering synergy in tonality between components to a sound your ears like

the croft is a slightly uptilted, ’spot-lit’ piece in signature - crofts and lfd's which gene rubin successfully sells with large harbeths are synergistic as they work this magic on the larger harbeths -- which are tonally warm and need a little more zing up top and to wake them up and ss damping factor down low to tighten the bass a touch, the p3’s do not need either...

....otoh the earthquake ht amps are well known for an extremely rolled off treble, that is their value proposition (ie... earthquake!) and their sound is tuned to that end

your setup is still biased towards bright, with room, location, cabling ... what have you

what we know for sure is the metrum dac is relatively warm and tonally full, but it seems that the rest is not...

when you get a properly linear hifi amp after returning the croft, i suspect you will be back on this merry go round again

the volume knob setting you refer to is a red herring... like the sensitivity of an accelerator pedal tip-in to the movement of a car - a more sensitive pedal for the first 20% of the range of motion doesn’t make the car more powerful...

good luck
ryder
1,748 posts
 
Obviously there are 2 camps here, more power/current amps, or flea-powered amps for the Harbeth. If one predominantly listens to mellow stuff or vocals such as Jennifer Warnes, a low powered amp would do fine. However, for music with a lot of dynamic swings and fast punchy bass and transients, an amp which can deliver the current for those instantaneous burst of dynamics would be much better. Not all amps are made the same. A 200W amp may sound a lot less inadequate in comparison to another 200W amp from a different maker. The numbers only tell half the story. Numbers on the tested power output in the lab will be more accurate. Those amps with robust power supply, you can usually tell a little by having a peek at the internals of the amp.

In most cases, Harbeth usually sound better if you feed it with more current / power. For refinement, clarity and detail, the overall quality of the amp or preamp would take precedence. That is the reason high quality flea powered amps usually show better clarity and fine detail than most common big amps with brute power.
jjss49's avatar
jjss49
6,612 posts
 
@ryder

i agree with you

my super 5’s, compact 7’s currently, and even the mon 40s and 30’s i had before all like more power rather than less - the hegels have wonderful synergy

lots of folks use tube amps, but i have found tube pre and really good ss power amp is the best combo, unless you go big buck audio research reference series and the like
More to discover