The best TT system for under 30K

@whart just finished cleaning my rug and laid it out inbetween my sofa and speakers, what a difference! Everything else is the same but bass notes are definitely more authoritative and tight! Thanks a lot for the tips man!

Dear @uwiikz : I know you are really impatient/anxious in this new audio world for you in this new and very long trip full of opportunities and full of obstacles that want it or not you as all of us time to time make not one but several mistakes/falls. All those is part of the day by day learning.

You have a very wise dealer that puts in front of you to many excellent " candies for a child " ( like those A-250. ) that the " child " can’t refuse to eat.

You started this thread less than a week ago and rigth know you already made it your first system up-grade: to Miyajima Madake from Kansui, ", well that’s the way you are and the way audio is.

Now and " looking " of what you want and you are doing your next main action is to choose those 2 subwoofers ( yes always must be 2 and never only one. ).
It’s the most critical link in the system chain in the short and long time: we normally make changes in our systems through the years, changes in amps, cartridges, TT, CDP, cables, tonearms but subwoofers where these units normally lives almost for ever with us.

In the other side and I repeat again: we integrate subwoofers in our room/system not mainly to increment the bass low response ( that’s a good side line. ) but to improve the whole QUALITY level performance of that room/system and what we are listening at it.

The best room/systems are those that have the best bass range management/performance. Every thing good or wrong that happens in that frequency range modulates for the good or wrong all the system quality response.
Bass range quality is the most important frequency range in any room/system no matters what.

Rel is a bad choice, first because his response is very poor: -6db at 19hz and its THD is over 5% in the other side is a reflex design instead acoustic suspension that’s lower in distortions and with better overall response: tigther bass.

Of course that you have the Rel dealer at your place and knowing you when you can test it you will pull the triger. Do it a favor and don’t do it yet. Listen to it to learn a little about subs. Anyway you can buy it if you want, your choice.

" REL’s does a far better job of ‘disappearing’ and gelling with your main speakers. "

that statement is not only false but shows the low knowledge level that that gentleman has with the subs specific issue.

Look, if we have a good integration subs inside our room/system all subs " disappears ", period .

Years ago and way before in the high end forums audiophiles talked about subwoofers to listen stereo MUSIC ( people think that subs were for HT. ) I learned my first hand experiences and through several tests in my system and other systems till I learned that subwoofers is a true critical necessity in any " decent " stereo MUSIC room/system. In those years I started a thread in Agon here a highlight about that always is of interest for any audiophile that cares about MUSIC and quality reproduction of that MUSIC:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer/post?postid=310058#310058

I tested several subs including Rel and finished my " voyage " with a pair of Velodyne HGS-15 self powered subs that still today I’m enjoying and thatI don’t change it for any other in today market.

Velodyne has a patent for the subwoofer ( sealed/acoustic suspension design. ) can performs at below 20hz and over 100db SPL with an outstanding 0.5% THD, not even today any sub can be not even near that figure.
Velodyne subs sense over 20K times each second the woofer excursions to impede the THD goes higher than that incredible spec. This spec permits that you have the best quality level bass response coming from the Velodyne and that no other subwoofer design for home system use can shows you.

No, you can’t reach Velodyne because it’s not any more in business but making a little internet research I found out that thi’s an unexpected source for the last and latest Velodyne subwoofer design the DD-15.

""" I am concerned if blending the sub perfectly will be tough without built in room correction and I like the idea of cutting the frequency going to main speaker.. """

good that you are concerned about because that room correction is a must to have in the subs. Well this Velodyne has it and has a high-pass filter too:

https://www.referenceaudiovideo.net/velodynedd15.html

are the only units all over the world.I don’t know if the seller/dealer can ship to your country and I don’t know if you can wait for it. It’s worth to have these Velodyne subwoofers, big rewards for you and MUSIC.

Important issue: I think that before you start with the overall room treatment wait till you have in place your subwoofers, the ones you decided to buy: is up to you. Normally the 80% of the room treatment has a direct relationship with the bass range, it’s what it really counts.

Other main subject you have to take in count for optimum subwoofer quality levels is if you will integrate it using the subwoofer crossover to split the signal to the K300 or use an active external crossover for the K300.

If I was you my choice will be to make it through the Bryston ( the Accuphase looks very good too but works in the digital domain. ) external crossover and please let me explain about:

first Bryston is a first grade electronic manufacturer for many years, quality  levels of the design is excellent.
second is that the Bryston unit has alternatives to choose the best one that fulfill the K300 frequency response needs that can mates the best with the subs you choosed.

You can choose between 6db, 12db or 18db crossover filter slopes where the first order ( 6db. ) is very convenient because you have no phase problems as with the higher slope order ones that are the ones that normally comes in the sub crossover.

It comes with an attenuator for the main speakers/K300 .
It’s a dual mono design, all separated for each channel.
Has several selectable high-pass frequency of your choice. I think you will need to test between 80hz and 100hz for the K300.

The subwoofers crossovers don’t comes with all those kind of alternatives and the quality electronics of its designs even that is good has not the high quality level like in the Bryston dedicated unit.

In the other side the subs has two options to be connected: one trhough the Bryston and the other is directly from the preamp if this unit comes with two output connectors and this is the best way to connect the subs: directly from the preamp.

Exist the very best way to make the K300 crossover and this way is how I wired/connected my whole system:

I did it with out active external crossover and certainly not using the sub’s crossover.
What I did was to make the high-pass filter in passive way at the amplifier ( pair of monobloks. ) input with a first order filter ( 6db. ) using a capacitor and a resistor of the best quality you can find out and that’s it.

Adding nothing to the signal avoiding any signal degradation but this alternative needs of a good technician to make the job inside the amplifier. I can do that because I have the electronic input board diagram of the amplifiers. Not all amplifiers permit to do it.

Btw, FM Acoustics is an excellent phono, preamp and amplifier Swiss manufactured with a quality levels second to none. Wise dealer......

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@rauliruegas ,
thanks so much for taking the time to guide me with your in depth explanation. Although I am not new at all in audio world, I still have so much to learn when it comes to modern home audio (my last foray in home audio was 17 or so years ago), I do however never stop playing with car audio until today. What you explained made so much sense and I will take my time to re read again and again your suggestions to fully digest it. 

Yes I am like a kid in candy store everytime I visit that dealer, you are spot on on that, I just do not have the ability to be patient. Right now I am already considering Mola Mola Tambaqui from the same dealer but I am also considering tube DAC because believe it or not I think my system will be perfect if it has some slight tube signature on the sound. Maybe I just have too much time on my hand and need something to keep my mind occupied and busy. Semi retirement at early age seems like a good idea but I can tell you it’s damn boring especially right now with lockdown everywhere.


Back to the topic. I do not want to import my audio gear because it always turned out A LOT more expensive. Local dealers here have excellent discount and due to 0% import tax on electronic price is even more competitive than USA. Plus I also need to support local dealer so they can stay in business better, we have a lot of unemployment in the country and any business will help on that problem. I can find Velodyne DD18 brand new locally not the DD15 though and the DD18 os slightly more expensive than JL F113 V2. I will definitely try it out. The same Velodyne dealer happens to also the dealer for JL audio, so I can try both easily.


About frequency cutting, back in 1999 I used to be extremely fanatical about custom made passive crossover in the car audio scene. The guy who is a real expert in building custom passive with very expensive top grade components can definitely build one for my home audio, back in 2000 he even competed many times in USA with his custom passive and won many trophies. What do you think about that? Speaker output from A-250 to custom passive first to cut at 80-100hz then to speaker cable to continue to the K300. That way everything are still totally analog with zero digital intervention and I don’t need to buy one more set of $10.000 XLR just to cut the frequency via any other more common method.


I plan to visit the dealer for JL and Velodyne today but turned out the shop is closed due to Chinese New Year weekend holiday.


Your further thoughts please and as always, many thanks!

FM Acoustics phono.... hmmmm interesting....I’ll wait to get more info on high end tube phono first, if no luck FM Acoustic will be on my list. 

Dear @uwiikz : in the orther thread you posted:

"   I have to admit that I miss a bit of tube sweetness particularly on mid. "

well, yes because you are accustom to. That was my mind too when I switch ( after 10 year I have tube electronics. ) to SS and over time I learned that I was not wrong when I decided to go for SS that by a wide margin puts you or any music lover ( not hardware lovers as the tube audiophiles. ) nearer to the recording, it  is way faitfully to that where tubes just can't do it at the same quality levels.

SS electronics in top good designs comes with very wide frequency response at around 1Mhz+ and for very good reasons, are really low noise units and comes with extremely low distortions of any kind. It's a new world just you need time to take in count about, you can't do it in just one week and certainly not in a system that is not the definitive one where almost " day by day " is changing. 

When any one want to evaluates the SS against tube kind of sound always wants that the SS electronics comes with at least a little signature of the tube sound they are accustom too and this kind of attitude is totally wrong because both electronic alternatives are way way different ( like digital vs analog. ) and today SS are way superior just because is way better electronic alternative.

If you attend to a MUSIC live event ( example only. ) where you are seated at near field position and listen to  put attention that that MUSIC performance at real SPL is: agressive, brigthness, extremely fast transients, full of power, extreme dynamics, transparent with natural color, very well balanced , even some times a horn we can listen its hardness, timing and full of emotions.

Then compare it against a home audio system that the best can shows is to puts us nearer to the recording and SS outperforms easily any tube electronics and believe me I'm not biased through one way or the other I'm biased with the MUSIC and how should be sound/performs at home and nothing else.

FM Acoustics is a name I 'm in love for many many years. As a fact when we were in the design and build of our phonolinepreamp the targets I defined were that our unit could outperform any phonolinepreamp in the market or at least been a serious challenge for any units including FM Acoustics that I tested several times thank's to the dealer here that was my friend ( today he is not dedicated to sale audio any more. ) and I tested several other brands in my system and in other top systems with top analog rigs.

You asked: FM Acoustics or Accuphase? I have not to think about to give you the answer: FM Acoustics with out any doubt.

M. Huber designer and owner of FM just play in a diferent " league ". No single electronic design can beats FM ones, coul be a reference for any audio electronics designers.

In the other side and talking about the crossover several gentlemans think that active electronics is a better option than a passive one and in some ways could be true but depends of the passive design ( that must be extremely " simple " ) and the passive selection parts in the design ( this issue is critical. ).

Now, I did what I dit it at the input of my ampliers do that my monobloks are coupled at the input by one capacitor  and thank's to that and after found out how to keep the amp boards diagrams finally I did it just changing that input cap for another cap with a way  smaller  capacitance value followed by changing a resistor for different value that already been in that board. So, I'm lucky enough to do it but before that I did it through extrenal active crossover as Bryston, Threshold, the one in the Velodynes and other options.

So, in reality I don't did it " nothing " but  improved the quality level performance of the monobloks it self with that cap/resistor of very high quality compared with the stock ones ! ! along the desired crossover frequency.

I don't know which could be the kind of passive design your " man " can do it but yes it's an option and you can try it but you need a way for compare against other alternative and the only one could be the one that comes in the subwoofer crossover.

Perhaps the best and only alternative to active crossover than the Bryston is this:

https://www.fmacoustics.com/products/electronic-crossovers/fm-330-series/

R.