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Speaker Spike Philosophy

This is a learning exercise for me.

I am a mechanics practitioner by training and by occupation, so I understand Newton’s Laws and structural mechanics and have a fairly effective BS-detector.

THE FOLLOWING THINGS PUZZLE ME, and I would be glad to hear from those who believe they understand so long as the responses are based on your actual experience or on sound mechanical arguments (or are labeled as conjecture). These are independent questions/musings, so feel free to weigh in on whichever ones you want, but please list the number(s) to which you are responding:

  1. Everything I have read recently ("Ask Richard" (Vandersteen) from 15 Feb, 2020, for instance) seems to indicate that the reason for speaker spikes is to hold the speaker fixed against movement induced by the drivers. I have seen in the past other explanations, most employing some use of the term "isolation" implying that they decouple the speaker (from what?) Evidently the "what?" is a floor that is fixed and not moving (let’s assume concrete slab foundation). So to decouple the speaker from the floor, which is fixed, is to . . . allow it to move (or not) as it wishes, (presumably in response to its drivers). These two objectives, "fixity" and "isolation" appear to me to be diametrically opposed to one another. Is the supposed function of spikes to couple the speaker to "fixed ground" so they don’t move, or is it to provide mechanical isolation so that they can move (which I do not think spikes actually do)? Or, is it to somehow provide some sort of "acoustic isolation" having to do with having some free space under the speaker? Regarding the mechanical isolation idea, I saw a treatment of this here: https://ledgernote.com/blog/q-and-a/speaker-spikes/ that seemed plausible until I got to the sentence, "The tip of a sphere or cone is so tiny that no vibration with a long waveform and high amplitude can pass through it." If you have a spike that is dug into a floor, I believe it will be capable of passing exactly this type of waveform. I also was skeptical of the author’s distinction between *speaker stand* spikes (meant to couple) and *speaker* spikes (meant to isolate/decouple, flying in the face of Richard Vandersteen’s explanation). Perhaps I am missing something, but my BS-detector was starting to resonate.
  2. Spikes on the bottoms of stands that support bookshelf speakers. The spikes may keep the the base of the stand quite still, but the primary mode of motion of such speakers in the plane of driver motion will be to rock forward and backward, pivoting about the base of the stand, and the spikes will do nothing about this that is not already done by the stand base without spikes. I have a hard time seeing these spikes as providing any value other than, if used on carpet, to get down to the floor beneath and add real stability to an otherwise unstable arrangement. (This is not a sound quality issue, but a serviceability and safety issue, especially if little ones are about.)
  3. I have a hard time believing that massive floor standers made of thick MDF/HDF/etc. and heavy magnets can be pushed around a meaningful amount by any speaker driver, spikes or no. (Only Rigid-body modes are in view here--I am not talking about cabinet flexing modes, which spikes will do nothing about) "It’s a simple question of weight (mass) ratios." (a la Holy Grail) "An 8-ounce speaker cone cannot push around a 100/200-lb speaker" (by a meaningful amount, and yes, I know that the air pressure loading on the cone comes into play as well; I stand by my skepticism). And I am skeptical that the amount of pushing around that does occur will be affected meaningfully by spikes or lack thereof. Furthermore, for tower speakers, there are overturning modes of motion (rocking) created by the driver forces that are not at all affected by the presence of spikes (similar to Item 1 above).
  4. Let’s assume I am wrong (happens all the time), and the speaker does need to be held in place. The use of feet that protect hardwood floors from spikes (Linn Skeets, etc.) seems counterproductive toward this end. If the point of spikes is to anchor the speaker laterally (they certainly do not do so vertically), then putting something under the spikes that keep the spikes from digging in (i.e., doing their supposed job) appears to defeat the whole value proposition of spikes in the first place. I have been told how much easier it is to position speakers on hardwood floors with the Skeets in place, because the speakers can be moved much more easily. I was thinking to myself, "yes, this is self-evident, and you have just taken away any benefit of the spikes unless you remove the Skeets once the speakers are located."
  5. I am making new, thick, hard-rock maple bases for my AV 5140s (lovely speakers in every sense), and I will probably bolt them to the bottom of the speakers using the female threaded inserts already provided on the bottoms of the speakers, and I will probably put threaded inserts into the bottom of my bases so they can be used with the Linn-provided spikes, and I have already ordered Skeets (they were a not even a blip on the radar compared to the Akurate Exaktbox-i and Akurate Hub that were part of the same order), and I will end up doing whatever sounds best to me. Still, I am curious about the mechanics of it all...Interested to hear informed, reasoned, and reasonable responses.
linnvolk
twoch
429 posts
 
the Granite,,the Granite,
i went down that road  Tossed it outside after 4 weeks.  Thick wood blocks 
to me a better choice .  Tossed them in the garage  after about 17 weeks or so
 
millercarbon's avatar
millercarbon
12,531 posts
 
You made a good argument about sunk costs.Are you a lawyer in your spare time?

No, I am better than a lawyer, I am Millercarbon. Actually if you watch the Alan Watts videos I post you would know who I am. And who you are as well.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMRrCYPxD0I

When my folks passed I went to file probate. Clerk said you have to be an attorney to do that. No, you don't. Well you have to hire one, there's all these forms to fill out and file and they must be done a certain way. You mean like this one? And this one? I had researched the whole thing on-line. 

Thirty seconds later the case is filed and I am waiting my turn with the judge. Another time in court being sued by two idiot morons each with their own attorney me representing myself I didn't hardly even have to open my mouth but once to get the whole thing dismissed in my favor. I even got one of the idiot moron's attorneys to do something for me on their dime. So yeah, on top of audio, physics, electronics, politics, philosophy, economics, cosmology, add law. Oh, and business, astronomy, finance, trading, technical analysis, Elliott wave analysis, international finance (different than individual), world history, etc etc. 

Porsche, driving, fine watches, telescopes, bicycles, woodworking, plumbing, ... you get the idea. On top of all that I am incredibly modest and enjoy few things more than helping others master some of these fascinating subjects. 

As to why makers like Wilson don't just put theirs on springs, it would be so easy, but the answer is even easier. There's only so much time, money, and talent to go around. Easy for us armchair entrepreneurs to say do this do that. In reality they already are doing everything they can think of to do. If a Podium looks like a no-brainer, and it is, but so is directional wire, so is trying 15 different solders to find Cardas Quad Eutetic. Why use springs only under the speakers? What about the crossovers? Or should the crossovers be external? 

You get the idea. It is like that for everything. Every minute spent tracking down the best way of doing one of these is a minute not spent on what Wilson really knows best, designing speakers. (Yes I am giving them the benefit of the doubt on that.) 


sokogear
1,100 posts
 
Interesting. Have you tried isolation platforms? I am going to try Symposium’s as I mentioned above. I like the way it will work and fit with my speakers and keep the height constant.

It has multiple layers with one being a foam core that is the absorbing/compressing function like podiums. From looking at Mike Lavigne’s system, it appears that he is a fan of isolation platforms, although I am sure his are much higher quality and more expensive.

I spoke with the owner who has been at it for 27 years and has been improving incrementally along the way, just like 911s. Substantially less expensive than Max’s lowest cost solution and it focuses on getting the vibrations out of the speakers. Like you, he believes his platforms can help all components, including power conditioners! 
audiopoint
208 posts
 

Gentlemen,

Coulomb friction is a calculated measurement.

By definition: Coulomb friction is a simplified quantification of the friction force that exists between two dry surfaces in contact with each other.

Coulomb's law states that the kinetic friction of bodies in motion is independent of the actual sliding velocity of the bodies.

Why C_____b friction? Because our discovery titled Live-Vibe Technology™ begins with two dry surfaces contacting each other with motion. The fact that Live-Vibe is scalable and is adaptable to other industries plus there are many surfaces contacting each other and are using physical tension to improve performance in many of the product offerings. 

Now add the demand for proof of function by the audio community and you are back to C_____b friction.


As for the “component operational inefficiency” statement relating to product function” defined as a rancid word salad - get used to it. 

The science of tomorrow is about increasing operational efficiency in existing models such as electric power grids, transformer use, energy storage devices, compressors and electric motors that are a few products seeking newer energy conservation methodologies.

Our theorem involving component operational efficiency can also be proven using temperature as the control mechanism. Temperature reduction is much less arguable than the majority of audio’s hypotheses.

Science relates to efficiency, motion and temperature much easier than audio’s real-time-analyzation, flat response, polar patterns and compression wave dispersion, clogging of signal pathways, all of which are too subjective a topic for science, third party testing and product quantification.

Live-Vibe is also being explored for use in other industries outside that of audio, so I truly believe we are onto something here. I am not a physicist, not a mechanical or EE. Those guys do not wish to get involved in audio’s arguments - too subjective for their blood.


You can challenge any portion of a theorem and usually convince anyone the theorem has holes in it, ours being no different. I get edgy when smirks are presented in distaste hence the tater salad rebuttal. It is all I could come up with at the time but then add a glass of high-end single-malt and a great cigar and you might get a meet with Ron White instead ⌣.

Robert

Star Sound



sokogear
1,100 posts
 
BTW, I spoke with KEF about my speakers and they agree that the platform concept I am going to try, replacing the braces/spikes/discs with the multi-component platform can remove vibrations/distortions within the speaker cabinets.

I didn't ask them why they don't just provide it with the speakers :)

I guess MC is right about some things, although I don't think anyone is as smart as he thinks he is.....
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