Technics SL1000 MK3 (SP10 MK3) performance/value VS modern turntables?

"Frusciant"?

lol lol   
the paper money makes a typical sound when it rubs (frush frush) he he he

@atmasphere 

I think the SP10MkIII is better than the new 10R because it has so much more torque. But a good deal of that was so it could be used for LP mastering and I suspect that was not their goal with the newer version. 

Yes but no one has addressed the major problem with the SP10mk3 - that is the antiquated error correction circuitry based on obsolete chips that results in errors and overshoot.

The Technics SP10 servos use algortihms to estimate predicted errors and employ rapid response times (limited by the technology of the day). The servo action includes error and overshoot.

It is no better than the jitter endemic in digital reproduction, and sounds like it to me.

I am surprised that on one offers a modern improved speed control system for the SP10mk3 motor.

Since the Technics was built there have been significant advances in technology. We now have computer simulation software to model motor behavior and generate more accurate algorithms, from which the input parameters are derived. There are now faster chips and amplifiers for driving the motor �- PWM�s are switching at a trillionth of a second today.

The problem is the Technics is full of obsolete chips and trying to optimize the feedback loop would be like trying to tune a car that has a very basic engine management system. You would probably be better to throw the boards away and start afresh. 

By comparison look at the error correction systems employed in newer TT's such as the NVS & Monaco. 

Modern control systems, with enormous computing power, can use statistical analysis, and a continuous shrinkage technique to improve the prediction of error on the fly - resuting in less overshoot and more stability.

In other words with new technology, the input parameters for the speed correction/servos are NOT set in concrete, as in the SP10mk3, they can now be calculated on the fly.

If you believe you cant hear it - have a look at the reviews by owners of the new upgrades to the GP monaco TT's. Omly a few years ago they claimed their TT was state of the art and perfect ( just like CD ). now they have further refined their electronic servos and low and behold - the improvements are audible. And their first TT interation error correction makes the Technis SP10mk3 speed controller system look like the dinosaur it is.


Explanation of Overshoot

 Algorithms are used requiring control inputs based on measuring past errors, the present error and a prediction of future error based on the current rate of change. 
Past errors (Integral) are included to accelerate the process and remove any steady state errors in the present error (or proportional if you want to get technical). 
Since the integral term responds to an accumulation of errors from the past, it can cause the present value to overshoot the set point value (where you want to get to).

In terms of correcting the present error, if the gain is too high you get instability, too low and you get a less responsive controller that may not deal with fluctuations. 

The prediction of future errors (called the Derivative) is required to minimize overshoot.

So, summarizing this then these inputs have to be balanced to maximize the correction and minimize instability and overshoot. There are always tradeoffs.

I visited the Krebs website and found nothing in the price list at 2500$ for the modifications of the Technics MK3 you get to max 1200$ and in any case its modifications do not convince me.

If Technics SP10 owners are contemplating the krebsupgrade they should be aware that there are legal exclusions of liability for any breakages incurred during the modification and that the modifications are irreversible.
I quote from the krebsupgrade website -

Some Legal Items:
All due care will be taken with your precious motor, however there is a remote possibility that a fragile or previously damaged but still functioning part could fail. In the unlikely event of this happening. We will do our best to repair or replace this part but we cannot guarantee a fix and cannot be held accountable for this failure.

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
If I dont like the upgrade can it be removed?
Due to the nature of some of the materials used the complete upgrade cannot be reversed.

I also see that no measurements or objective tests have been provided to support the krebsupgrade claims. 

Personally if I had an SP10mk3 I would, at the very least, get a full service of the electronics done by Fidelis Analogue that includes an upgraded chip to replace MN6042 that does actually imrpove the original design, and for which Fidelis has published test data supporting his claims.

Dover, Stop.  Why don't you and Richard just have a duel at sunrise.  Water pistols to be the preferred weapon of choice.  As soon as his name is mentioned, out come your familiar attacks.  New Zealand is a beautiful and wide open country, and I am sure there is room for you both.

JP Jones at Fidelis is very familiar with all the various servo systems used by the various modern and vintage DD turntables, and I am sure he would have a lot to say in rebuttal of your issues with the Mk3.  The MN6042 is the primary controller for the motor (not just one of several such parts), and JP's replacement module made from modern SMD parts is a bit superior to the MN6042 in doing that job, but not all that much.  In my opinion, what you are hearing from the Mk3 that you find objectionable has nothing to do with the servo, unless you have been listening to a subpar unit and assuming in fact that you have ever had an extensive listening experience with a Mk3 in your own system.  Do not assume that the Mk3 is just a bigger stronger Mk2.  It's a whole different and more colorless world.  I can say that having owned both and having had them side by side in the same system. 

Lewm - just to be clear

I use to listen to an SP10mk3 just about every night for about 3-4 years back in the early 80's - purchased NZ new, Technics EPA100mk2, and various cartridges bog standard and immaculately maintained by a precision engineer, fully qualified, who owned the largest die cutting machine in Australasia.
Over the last 40 years I've heard it in multiple systems with different arms along with multiple L07D's and many Sp10mk2's which are more common.
The last SP10mk3 I have listened to at length was fully updated with Krebs mods, Porter plinth, SME V12 & Ikeda 407 mounted.

With regard to the servo system I cant understand why you cannot conceptualise that advances in motor controller technology might improve the SP10mk3 significantly. Are you still using the computer you purchased in 1978, if indeed you had one.

As far as vintage audio goes, rare items are now like vintage cars - if you modifiy them chances are you diminish the value. Do you not think that folk who are interested in modding their equipment should be fully informed when making their decision. All I did was point to the website of the modifier, I did not make any subjective statements on the quality of the work or efficacy.
The modifier in question on his website states that the mods are not reversible, and if any breakages occur in the modification process, the modifier eschews any legal responsibility due to the age of the equipment.