How much difference does a phono preamp really make?

You just said the pre is not a concern with Mm or Mi . Thats BS. Pure BS....regardless of output..nonsense. A better phono pre makes any cartridge sound better that can be better.

You are free to start from the other side, if you’re using average cartridge you can upgrade your phono preamp, but your limit is a cartridge (limit in frequency response, distortion, channel separation, clarity, resolution, tracking ability etc). You can’t do anything about it upgdaring a phono stage!

It’s like trying to play badly recorded vinyl and blame your phono stage, but the problem is SOURCE.
If the vinyl is OK next step is CARTRIDGE (not phono stage).

When we have a decent phono cartridge then a phonostage is definitely very important, because a decent cartridge reproduce what’s on the record correct.

Look at OPs cartridges first!

Trouble is you only and always push your ownership bias on all others here.

This is a common sense, nothing else.

The Technics is your idea of best, not mine and many many others agree. Its just a subjective choice that to many doesnt sound right. The arm...Ive heard better on that exact table. Reason why many swap it out...they know..not opine blindly. How many do you own ? Im guessing none. I kept one for 6 months . Good table not my sense of natural analog sound.

I don’t care about it at all, BECAUSE THE OP’S TURNTABLE IS TECHNICS and he asked for a phono stage, not for another turntable, try to understand it (my personal choice doesn’t matter, and my turntables are two Luxman PD-444, not Technics).

If Technics is red flag for you then try to understand that OP is already the owner of Technics.

Please stop with the imperialistic opinions that if you dont own it or approve its bad and everyone else shouldnt either. Surprirised your not ranting about belts too. Whats wrong with Newbes and MC’s. I know plenty who started there with no problem...

I only post about something I own (or owned in the past 7 years). I posted many times why an MC is not good for a newbie, first problem is low output and as a result there is a noise, second problem is re-tipping process and very short life span of such cartridge in general (especially with average stylus profile). Main problem for a newbie is that he can accidentally damage the cantilever or stylus and then it’s over. It happens.

All these problems are irrelevant for MM or MI cartridges, because the stylus is user replaceable and available separately, no hum or noise with an average phono stage, and the sound is just like master tape with a decent MM or MI.


Personally I like LOMC cartridges too, but I am not a newbie and I have tried and owned over 50 different cartridges in the last 7 years (new high-end and vintage high-end), including some of the best LOMC, MM, MI.

Regarding Technics turntables: I know them very well, using them for over 25 years, the last one was SP-10mkII. But I still have two upgraded SL1200mkII in my second system and I test my cartridges using those decks with headphones. In my main system I have much better turntables and tonearms (Reed 3p, FR64s and FR66fx, Lustere 801, Denon, Ikeda ... ).

But when a person (who own Technics) asking for advice I believe I know what I’m talking about.

The OP cartridges like Denon 110 MC is the worst part in his analog chain, not his phono stages! Logically it’s nice to start with a better cartridge in this situation (it’s also cheaper start with more noticeable results). Because if you will start with a phono stage the cartridge will be like a bad filter between the source and phono stage and a lot of information will be missing and will not be delivered to the phono stage (even if it will be a top phono stage on earch)! This is why upgrading a phono stage (if necessary) is next step after upgrading a cartridge!

If you brain work different it’s not my problem @has2be



NOW LET ME QUOTE THE OP:

Sorry for the noob question...

I have a Technics SL1200-GR turntable with two cartridges; a Denon DL110 and a Clearaudio Performer. I also have two phono stages; a Consonance PM6 and the internal phono stage in my Belles Aria integrated.

I see a weak link and it’s Denon DL110 MC cartridge.
I see another weak link and it’s ClearAudio MM cartridge with unprotected aluminum cantilever with Elliptical tip without ability to change the stylus by user, cartridge generator made by Audio-Technica, but the output of this cartridge is not a problem for OP’s phono stages!

Better cartridge will change everything in his system in my opinion, without upgdading of the phono pre.

Nothing changes the fact the phono pre will always be a bottleneck to everything before it if it isnt up to task and flexible enough like an open tap to let it flow uninpeded.
Clearly you can’t read or your bias guilds you. I said EVERTHING MATTERS equally and to think of the cart arm and pre as one for synergy.
ALL IN ONE.

We all are well aware of your Luxman tables. I told you 2 years ago, I had one over 4 decades ago when current and in spec. Found it more digital and hollow sounding then and now as do others.
Thats subjective , its what choice allows us.

The OP asked....How much difference does a phono preamp really make?

It makes plenty of difference. It can ruin a well set up cart and arm. It has more control over both arm and cart ,able to bottleneck like a half open faucet. Get the best you can afford so every drop of energy from contact gets through. Lesser priced carts suddenly dont sound lesser at all.
Better carts , well getting out of what you paid dearly for is a better value again. This is common sense. NO matter how good your cart is , it will ALWAYS be at the mercy of the electronics that interpret that tiny signal and amplify it. The cart cant fix that, its job is done.
It’s not about seeing it from one end or the other. It’s about seeing it as one from beginning to end and budgeting to acheive it with no bottlenecks at the users own price point. Once again , choice is good.
As well, bias ownership and ranting on about it is far from common sense espescially when you shout down anyone elses choices as toys if they arent what you own. Thats narrow minded living in a box with blinders that retards your learning and others. Not inclusive at all.
Your gripes about MC carts. Those appear more as obstacles to you, you personally, or you wouldnt be whining about them...again n again.....many others dont seem to be so incapable to get past it and hear what they are capable of....with a better phono section....
Just like many like their MM or MI even more...with a better phono pre

In my experience not just opinion, a better phono pre in anyones system allows wider choice of carts, types, output , flexability and far better sound out of all choices. Lesser priced carts become far better value. Expensive carts really shine. Win win..... long term...not short sighted ignoring the room new cart change and upgrade that usually follow us all with carts that wear.
Versatility and choice keeps one from being trapped and boxed in....

The phono section is critical to the sound you get in a system. If it does anything suspect the best amps and speakers in the world won't make it right.

One thing poorly understood is how phono sections can generate ticks and pops that sound for all the world as if they are on the LP surface. These ticks and pops occur if the phono section has poor high frequency overload margins. A cartridge and tonearm cable have an electrical resonance that will be between 20-30dB more powerful than the actual signal. While this resonance might be at a couple of MHz, if energized by the cartridge output it can easily overload the input section of the phono preamp- and you get a tick when that happens.


A side benefit of a properly designed phono section (one that takes this phenomena into account) is that it will be less sensitive to 'cartridge loading'. Cartridge loading is the use of a loading resistor at the input of the phono stage. Its really there for the benefit of the phono section rather than the cartridge- it detunes that resonance I mentioned above. If the phono section is sensitive to that resonance, removing it will cause the phono section to sound better. But the act of loading the cartridge causes the cartridge to have to generate more current- and that in turn will cause its cantilever to be more stiff. IMO/IME you're better off working with a phono section that does not have this issue.

As a side note, I'm convinced that this engineering problem is a good part of why the CD came into existence, since back in the 1970s and 80s the majority of phono sections made had this tick and pop problem. If people didn't think that LPs had ticks and pops would they have been so eager to embrace the CD? ...

Hi @audionoobie 
I have been a Phonostage Enthusiast and Obsessive for far too many years, where the over interest has encouraged myself to have spent more time experiencing them than any other Device in my system.
This is a undertaking that is still with me, and COVID Travel Restrictions Impacted on most noticeably, when it come to my particiapation with the social side of HiFi .

I can not put a figure on how many Phonostages I have auditioned over the years, and my interest has not wained.
Very recently, now there are new freedoms to be exploited, I was with a group of friends auditioning one of the groups selection of ancillary devices that they have, to be used in conjuction with Phonostages.
On this occasion there have been Two Phonostages, in use, along with SUT's, Head Amp's and a Deguassing Device, to attempt to keep all Demonstrations carried out with the fairest of play times for each comparison.   
On this occasion there was a Debut within the Group of a very respected and reasonably well known Brands High Level Solid State Phonostage Model, using the Built in MC Stage and the other ancillaries.

This Debut was carried out as a Comparison along side a Bespoke Built all Valve Phonostage, using a SP10R, Glanz 12" Arm and a Miyajima Cartridge.
Due to Lockdown, this was my long overdue and first encounter with the TT Set Up.
In the above case all the auditions left very indelible memories, where the impression is very positive, and is a reminder of the bar that can be set for a Vinyl Front End.
Each Phonostage shared traits that were similar, but there was an overall separation in the Presentation, where one was Fleet Footed and offered an air of precision and control.
The other took the music on and showed a Tremdous Presence with ethereal room filling Voluminous Sound.

Prior to this meeting, I was keen to get on the road and meet a fellow enthusiast.
To achieve this I carried out a 200 Mile round trip, to visit a good friends home, and was listening to their own Bespoke Built Phonostage Design.
This was not a comparison, it was a update on a Demonstration of a evolved design I was becoming familiar with prior to the Lockdown.
The TT in use was a completely Over Hauled SP10 MkII.
This updated demonstration was quite phenominal, and left me with goosebumps.
I was greatly impressed, and am very keen to hear this Phonostage on my home system.

'In a nutshell' a Phonostage can quite easily make or break a system,
in relation to how it can produce a performance that leaves a very positive impression.
The effect that the use of can have on a individual, will only be understood by being in the Company of one, preferably being used on the Home System .
Most importantly the Phonostage is a Device needing to be heard,
hearing the choices of others who have taken a long time to find their Holy Grail of a Phonostage, can be extremely rewarding and educational.

There might be foot work required to get the best experiences and gain in understanding where your preferences lean toward, but what a great way to grow in understanding, through meeting fellow enthusiasts and being given demonstrations of the choices that others have made .     

The Ypsilon phono stage costs $30,000 and provides only 39 db of gain with a fixed input impedance. It sounds fantastic but price and flexibility do not go hand in hand in the current market.