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Jazz And Speaker Placement

Inspired by the purchase of a new pair of speaker stands (custom made for my LS50s, whatever good that does), I just went through a painful reevaluatIon of my system’s speaker placement. A lot of reading—particularly into the SBIR phenomenon, along with KEF’s own literature—and even more experimentation. Two guidelines: No rules and no big money on footers.

The last time I tried this, I wound up with the speakers on spikes, 4” from the speaker wall, with socks stuffed into the ports. (Some members of this forum may not have heard: I’ve done away with the terms “front” and “back” walls, along with the confusion and explanations that always accompany then, in favor of the terms speaker wall and listener wall. Please use these terms going forward.)


The first person to hear this setup asked, “Where’s the bass?” He was right. The sound had been tightened within an inch of it’s life. Bass and drums were staccato, with plenty of black space audible. But that’s not the way bass sounds, nor a kick drum. They are soft instruments, with lots of attack and decay. They are not “transients,” at least not in the way that I understand that word. (To me, “transient” has about the same descriptive power as ‘postmodern.”)

This was “audiophile bass,” to borrow Paul McGowan’s phrase, and it had to go. The socks had been long gone by the time the new stands arrived, now, following the advice of McGowan and our own MillerCarbon, I got rid of the spikes and replaced them with a dot of poster putty. Played around with the positioning but kept them in the SBIR-friendly spot close to the wall.


“Miss You” by The Rolling Stones was my reference bass sound during all of this. Great bass line and it now sounds glorious. But I’m still new enough at this game to question my own ears. So allow me to ask the jazz lovers on this forum a question:

Bill Evans’s famous stand at the Village Vanguard has been issued on two albums (probably more). The Paul Motian-heavy “Sunday At” and the more normal sounding “Waltz For Debbie.” In my new setup, I’m “Waltz,” Motian and LeFaro are as loud in the left channel as Evans does in the right. (I may have the channels reversed.) Is this how it’s supposed to sound? In the old days, Evans dominated. Now the famous interplay among this trio is more clear.


It sounds good but it’s definitely a change. Is this how it’s supposed to be?

Worried in Williamsburg.
paul6001
jl1ny's avatar
jl1ny
419 posts
 
NEARFIELD!! Seriously…compare and evaluate.

Also if you want to tweak your set up even further check out the YouTube audiophile, “New Record Day” he has a great tutorial on speaker set up. I messed with it and it really improved on what I thought was already great.
zlone
756 posts
 
I have LS50's and placement challenges as well, and am a jazz fan familiar with the Vanguard album. Based on your post I played the first track and yes, I would say the sides are close to even level with with some edge given to Evans. I thought they were even at first, but then realized I had not shut off my subwoofer. With that off, edge to Evans, but still pronounced bass on the left channel.

I would say this about your configuration, if you are four inches from the wall, you should be using the full foam bass plugs supplied with the LS50's. With open ports that close the wall I expect you will get boomy bass, though I understand with the foam the overall bass is significantly decreased, it will be higher quality. Definitely don't use a sock, use the foam that came with them.

I built special stands for my LS50's to work around some fixed obstacles in my room and so I could get my speakers about 10" from the wall allowing me to use the half foam plugs. This greatly improved my bass response and clarity. I really wish I could get a couple feet and remove the plugs altogether. 

If you are jazz fan with LS50's I cannot recommend strongly enough that you invest in a good subwoofer. I started with a Polk and now have a REL 7i, it blends perfectly and adds so much to the sound.

While I am at it, and starting an entirely different conversation, even though the Vanguard recording is considered one of the great performances, what is up with splitting the piano to one channel and bass/drums to the other? Makes for a disappointing soundstage.
paul6001 OP
98 posts
 
“Trust your ears.”

”If it sounds good to you that’s all that matters.”

I can hear it being shouted from the rooftops. I knew that was the answer before I made that post and, as I listen to this system sound more and more gorgeous than it ever has, my ability to do so is growing by the hour. But it takes confidence, and with so much information/opinions/bullshit being thrown at me, confidence can be elusive. 

But my confidence grows as I listen to the Evans trio and can hear, plain as day, clearer than I’ve ever heard it before, Bill Evans pushing the music one way, and Motian and LeFaro picking it up and pushing it even farther, then Evans . . .

The second track, one of the “Waltz For Debbie” takes, encapsulates perfectly everything I’m saying. Spikes have been ruined this song for me all these years. And it’s still happening in countless homes! I’ve got to warn them! I’ve got to save them!
paul6001 OP
98 posts
 
Zlone, I spent years fearing boomy bass. I never actually heard any, but Stereophile warned me about it and if Stereophile said it was a problem then it must be. So I pulled the speakers out as far as I could. (Which wasn’t far.) Not much bass. (With no sub, I need all the room gain I can get.) But no one could accuse the bass I had of being boomy. 

Then I read about SBIR, which gave moving them close to the wall some theoretical underpinning. Then I learned that pro studios had their speakers built into the wall. I felt even more comfortable getting backing up the speakers as far as I could. 

I’m still poised like a puma to leap at the first hint of boomyness. But it just ain’t there. As I said earlier, bass is not meant to be a fast starting/stopping sound. Having heard many of them live, both acoustic and electric, I’m quite confident that I’m getting the right sound. No boomyness but no artificial tautness, either. 

Everyone and everything tells me that it should sound boomy. I’ve listened for it and I just don’t hear it. Maybe I just got lucky. Maybe my couch is tuned to the perfect resonance. Whatever it is, I’m safe from boom. And I will live in fear no longer!
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