High quality subwoofer - which one?

OK, we're getting some good info. Right now, I'm REALLY confused why top of the line sound quality subs do not have high-pass filters for 2.1 or 2.2 systems (or sell one). Everything seems to be for home theater gears high pass electronics that is NOT as good sounding as my RLD-1 platinum pre and KISMET amplifiers that I WILL keep using! So much for my rant, back to physical reality of what's out there...

The "sound" is related to the high-pass filter, so it seems that top-flight vendors would want to control that effort to hold quality. Sure, a sub made for LFE home theater doesn't really have to be a good "music" sub. But, the one I buy does have to be MUSIC more than LFE. This means some options will require a high quality low pass filter. I know of ONE, the Bryston 10B-SUB. Still, $4,000.00 for a crossover? If I go this route, and buy a sub and the cross -over, the economy will change throughout the world. When I bought the C4's it improved to where it is now!

The Velodyne DD 18 plus would be the single sub choice based on cost / performance as it has a high-pass filter...so I can use it any way I want. They say the DD 18+ is the most expensive sub out there, but it IS NOT for true 2.1 users! Yes, maybe for home theater guys and gals it is who use HT pre-amp. Subs that need a high-pass filter (unless I can be convinced that this isn’t so) are really WAY, WAY more expensive to use in a 2.1 system.

1.0 If I cross-over low enough, I don't need a high pass cross-over?
- Some have said, elsewhere, that the benefit of a sub is to take intermodulation distortion out of the speakers and get it to the sub, improving clarity and dynamics. I'd probably not get this benefit running the C4's full range with a sub X-over set about 40 Hz or so as the C4's cone excursions aren't reduced.

2.0 Most seem to think an 80 Hz low pass frequency is a good starting point...with a high pass filter (Velodyne DD18 plus allows this). And, this removes big cone excursions from drivers playing mid range information, improving clarity.

Talk to me more about the use of a high-pass filters (or not) with subs. The manuals for the subs are TERRIBLE at set-up configuration details. I've read them all and there are nothing but questions in my mind. Does modern sub digital room compensation INCLUDE the output from your main speakers running full range while you EQ and tune accordingly? Older technology that could not do this REQUIRE a high-pass filter?

ANOTHER SUB SELECTION;
From another angle, the Paradigm SUB 1 is a three sided driver arrangement that "spreads" the room loading in three dimensions smoothing the response of a single room position sub. And, it has the output of two 12" drivers using six eight inch drivers. The digital EQ is reported to be VERY, VERY good. But, this sub doesn't have a high pass filter, either. The to be or not to be high-pass filter question remains.

What's so odd, is that the sound you EQ (The C4's and my Quatro are about the same on warble tones, 77+/- 5 dB variation from 20-100 Hz, but the Quatro has it all over the C4 playing actual music. A speaker that is INACCURATE on warble tones and ACCURATE on DYNAMICS would seem to sound better than a speaker that is ACCURATE on warble tones but INACCURATE on dynamics. BOTH would be super. But, the trade-off in a full range speaker is HUGE size to really get the bass right. I just don't think you can really do it with out a powered sub. The HUGE power in a sub tends to also tell you something! You just can't keep up with even a Boulder 1060 running C4's down low compared to powered subs(s).

The C4's are almost 6 dB down from reference below 30 Hz, that's HUGE power time (over double the watts) to get it flat. The C4's go that low with no doubling, but they are red faced trying to be FLAT and dynamic that low.

I use a single JL Audio Fathom f113 (no external cross-over required) and it's the best I've had or heard. I came from 2 REL Stentors and the bass is now more defined and tighter.

(Dealer disclaimer - not for JL though)

I' m also looking for sub to integrate with my C&C Abbys. But I'm looking for one with a speakon connection to the speaker taps. REL and AOS are the only ones I knw of. So far a REL 201 is my first choice.

I believe that the reason that integrated high pass crossovers are disappearing from subs is simply economic. As you note, the high pass is redundant for HT use which - just guessing here - completely dominates the market for subs at any price. Then, within the small group of customers seeking high end subwoofers for 2 channel use, there's probably a fair chunk that prefers to use a separate x-over (Marchand, etc) anyway.

Including a high quality high pass unit integrated into the subwoofer surely increases price for a feature that has little value to most prospective buyers.

As to the "Do I or don't I?" high pass question, I think it comes down to DRC again. If you use DRC, you might get really good results either way. If you don't use DRC, I say high pass. I know that many other 'goners disagree, but I believe that the biggest advantage of subs can be heard in the smoother FR between 50hz and 75-125 hz (depending on the room) where room interaction is dominating very important musical info. For me, anything below 50hz is just icing on the cake - tho I will admit I do like that icing!.

In a DRC system, the software can do the heavy lifting. In a non-DRC system, your subs can go a long way toward smoothing response in this area....but only if they're crossed high enough to handle the bandwidth in question.

Just my preferred solution.

Marty

Hi Marty. You're likely correct, but I use my AOS (Art of Sound) sub with the speakon connected to the center channel taps to make it a large speaker in my HT setup. You'd be amazed at how much LF info is in the center channel in action movies. Many enter channel speakers are so limited.