I wanted to mention one more variable, I have thought in the past that a cart was either bright or dark, by changing the mounting plate from brass to aluminum, the openness, detail, weigh has certainly changed. So tonearm mass, or how close the weight is to the bearing can influence the overall sound. Vinyl is a road of variables and compromises. Having a cart for a short time makes evaluation rather difficult.
Why do these Zyx Fuji and Airy 3 have such a dark sound?
Hi everybody.
I only have around 24 hours for this, so I’m posting this last minute. Sorry about this. I’ve also posted this on Vinyl Engine.
Before I go into details, this is my question:
To anybody who owns a Zyx R100 Fuji S or a R1000 Airy 3 X (or similar models), does your cartridge sound "dark" like I describe below (a big dip in the treble)? Sound clips are provided at the end.
Okay, here I go. This is long, so I hope you can cope with all the details, as they are necessary:
I have these two cartridges on loan (and I have to return them tomorrow) because I had previously downloaded vinyl rips done with these two carts, and I really, really liked the sound of those vinyl-rips. The carts seemed quite accurate and neutral and as if they had a fairly flat frequency response and without harshness, which is what I was looking for: Not a "typical" dark MM sound, nor a "typical" bright MC sound either.
So, this is where the trouble starts:
The downloads don’t sound like the recordings I’ve made myself with the same carts! Some people call Zyx carts too bright, but it’s as if the treble is missing on my recordings when I compare to the downloads. It’s possible that I just don’t like these carts after all, but it’s strange that the downloads all have the same sound signature even though they’re from different uploaders using different systems, which would indicate that nothing would have gone wrong in the recording or uploading process.
I think there are four possible explanations to what I describe below:
1: My recordings sound like these carts are supposed to sound like, and I just don’t like them.
2: Something has gone wrong in all of the downloads I mention.
3: None of the phono stages used for the vinyl-rips I mention follow the riaa curve, but are all top-heavy by several dB.
4: All three Zyx carts (yes, three, see further down) are faulty
So, I’m wondering if I’m doing anything wrong, or I can adjust some settings to achieve the same sound as the vinyl-rips I downloaded. I feel like I have literally tried EVERYTHING there is to try. I read that Zyx carts are very sensitive to setup, but no matter what I’ve done, the sound hasn’t changed, except for a slight change in channel balance. I’ll elaborate about this further down. One thing I did notice was that both the Fuji and the Airy were very loud when I stood next to the turntable and listened to them play "acoustically".
Yesterday, I took the Airy to an acquaintance’s place and tried it on his turntable, which was an old Thorens with a Mørch UP4 tonearm. He used PSB Imagine T2 Tower speakers. We both agreed that the recordings done on my setup were identical to how it sounded on his setup, except maybe that there was a slight speed discrepancy.
Here I can also interject that I’ve also been trying out a Goldring 2500 cart at the same time, and that was too bright for me, and even brighter than certain digital 16/44.1 kHz masters that the records had been cut from. So trying that cart, as well as trying the Zyx on my acquaintance’s setup, would rule out that there’s something wrong with my turntable or preamps.
And the last aspect that can rule out that my equipment is the problem is this: Before borrowing the carts, I went to the shop and made a recording (with my own phono preamp with its built-in convert) of the new Zyx Ultimate 100 on their setup, which I’m quite certain was an Acoustic Signature Wow XL or XXL turntable with an Acoustic Signature TA-1000 tonearm. That recording was even darker than the one done with the Fuji on my own setup. The shop also said that the Fuji was a bit brighter than the Ultimate 100.
I use my headphones and Foobar’s ABX plugin to compare my own recordings with the vinyl-rips I downloaded, so even if my headphones were broken, I would be able to hear the difference between my own recordings and the downloads (like I could at my acquaintance’s place yesterday).
Here’s my setup:
* Sennheiser HD650 headphones
* Rega RP3 with an RB-303 tonearm (2013 model)
* NAD PP-4 phono preamp
* Parasound Zphono preamp
* Also a Soundsmith MCP2 MC phono preamp with adjustable ohm loading that the shop lent me. I’ve ONLY used this on the Airy. When loaded with 100 ohm, like the NAD and the Parasound, the only difference I could hear between the Soundsmith and the NAD, was that the Soundsmith was a bit darker sounding. The Parasound is also a bit darker than the NAD. Feel free to read the excellent measurements of the NAD PP-3 on Stereophile’s website. The maximum deviation from the riaa curve is 0.25 dB. When increasing the ohm load to 1000 ohm on the Soundsmith, the treble became more prominent but still not to the same extent as on the downloads. After 1000 ohm it didn’t seem to change any further. At 10 ohm I didn’t hear any difference to 100 ohm. It just seemed strange to me that I had to increase the ohm load that much, when 100 ohm is the standard and when I read that people use less than that for Zyx. Also, the phono stages used in the downloads are not all able to even go to 1000 ohm (nor was it mentioned that the ohm load was that high). I am of course aware that comparing to a random download is not the perfect way to do it, but still… As mentioned, all the downloaded vinyl-rips have the same sound signature.
* Focusrite Scarlet 2i2 A/D converter
* Objective2 + ODAC headphone amp and DAC
I’ve recorded with both the Focusrite converter and the built-in converter in the NAD and I couldn’t tell them apart in an ABX test.
So, these are the settings I’ve been experimenting with:
* Protractors: I’ve printed three protractors: The Baerwald and Stevenson protractors from Vinyl Engine, as well as the Arc Template Generator that Conrad Hoffman made (I used Bearwald for that one as well). I couldn’t hear any difference on any of them, except for one recording with a slight difference. I’ve also tried pushing the cart 1 mm forward or 1 mm back, pushing it all the way forward into the headshell or pulling it all the way back, turning it a bit towards the spindle, or turning it away from the spindle. It didn’t make a difference except for a bit on the channel balance. With my Rega Exact cart I passed blind tests between a Baerwald adjustment and the "factory" setting with three screws (the Baerwald was brighter). In the shop, they adjusted the Ultimate 100 with a Dr. Feickert protractor.
* VTA: I could hear a small difference, but big enough to pass a blind test, between a recording where I raised the arm 6 mm, and one where I put two records beneath the mat, so it would be very much tail down. However, not much of a difference. I also heard the same difference with the Goldring (raised was brighter).
* Counterweight. I’ve tried going from 1,50 grams up to 2,50 grams. I’ve tried Art Salvatore’s recommended 1,85 grams, the recommendation of 1,95 grams from another, 1,79 grams, and pleeeeenty of other combinations, but I would mostly use 2,00 grams. No difference.
* I’ve tried to loosen the screws that bolt the cart to the arm a bit. No difference.
* I’ve used a bubble level to check azimuth (I then adjusted my arm a bit). No difference.
Lastly, you might think that the carts just need to break in. I thought so too, although I’ve always been a bit sceptical about break-in. Anyway, the Airy already had some play on it, and I was actually given another Fuji to try out, and it was well-used, but that one sounded even a bit darker (just worn, really). On top of this, the way I understand break-in is that before a cart is broken in, it will sound harsh and bright – the opposite of what is the case here. But if Zyx carts get a more prominent treble after breaking in, if breaking-in even exists, then this could be the explanation.
So, on to the sound clips:
I have uploaded the following clips recorded with the following equipment (all of my recordings are done with the Focusrite converter), and yes, the albums are all the same editions from the same countries (I always make sure of that):
1: AC/DC "Rock or bust", done with my Rega, the NAD preamp and the Zyx Airy, then the same setup but with the Soundsmith set to 1000 ohm, then the CD, which I believe is the same master used for cutting the record, then the vinyl-rip that I downloaded, which sounds quite close to the CD, done with the following equipment: Micro Seiki DD-8 + ZYX R100 Fuji S, PS Audio GCPH Phono Stage + Tube Preamp (Telefunken tubes 3xE88CC), TASCAM HS-P82. Lastly, a vinyl-rip download to compare, recorded with a Micro Seiki DDX-1000 / Micro Seiki MA-505L, Benz Micro Ruby Gullwing SHR, Past Audio C-7Super (Deluxe Edition), and M-Audio ProFire 610.
2: Marilyn Manson "Deep six" (from "The Pale Emperor"), my own recording with the Airy and NAD, then also with the Zyx Fuji and NAD, then done with my Rega Exact cartridge and NAD (I did, however, adjust the channel balance on my computer, as it was off, partly because the cart was made that way, and partly because the arm on my own turntable at the time was not mounted completely straight), then the recording from the shop done with the Zyx Ultimate 100 and NAD (detailed above). I had to adjust the channel balance here as well. And then lastly two vinyl-rips I downloaded, done with the following: 1: Pioneer PL-7L + ZYX R100 Fuji X, PS Audio GCPH Phono Stage + Tube preamp + Tascam HS-P82. 2: Garrard 401, ZYX Airy 3, Trilogy 907, Korg MR-1000. These two downloads sound quite similar.
3: Chris de Burgh "Take it to the top" (from "Man on the line"), my own recording with the Airy and NAD, then a vinyl-rip download done with a Garrard 401, ZYX Airy 3, Sentec/Nebula (A), and Korg MR-1000.
4: Queen "Self-titled" (re-release on Fame) my own recording with the Airy and NAD, and a vinyl-rip download done with Garrard 401, ZYX Airy 3, Sentec/Nebula (A), and Korg MR-1000.
5: Mastodon "Black tongue" (from "The Hunter") my own recording with both a Fuji and an Airy and the NAD, and then with an Airy and the Soundsmith set to 1 kOhm, and then a vinyl-rip download made with Micro Seiki DD-8+ZYX R100 Fuji SH, PS Audio GCPH Phono Stage + Tube Preamp (Telefunken).
LASTLY, since I figured that most of you wouldn’t have any of these albums, I have included recordings of two albums you might have, so you could compare:
Dire Straits "Brothers in arms" and "On every street" (both original EU prints).
I only have my own recordings of these, but I know that they’re both cut from digital 44.1 kHz masters, and my recordings are not very close to the CDs. The Goldring cart was brighter than the CDs, since it seemed to have a big spike in the treble.
So, here are the downloads:
https://mega.nz/#!dMZzmQxL!NnJaOtkx281lunKjeRpwSTmkKa8CUYuaEoVehKiyy-k
I hope this doesn’t sound offensive, but I’ll just say this to avoid any potential arguments and that people waste their time writing a lot of things: As you might have noticed, I’m a no-nonsense guy, so please no suggestions like "digital is crap", "you’re deaf", "buy a different turntable", or "buy brand X phono stage" or "buy new interconnects" or "buy a Nordost power cord" or "these carts are not good for that type of music" or whatever, because it’s besides the point, I’m not going to buy any of that, and I’m not I even going to debate it.
Anyway, I appreciate any and all help :-).
Thanks, and thanks for reading through all this!
I only have around 24 hours for this, so I’m posting this last minute. Sorry about this. I’ve also posted this on Vinyl Engine.
Before I go into details, this is my question:
To anybody who owns a Zyx R100 Fuji S or a R1000 Airy 3 X (or similar models), does your cartridge sound "dark" like I describe below (a big dip in the treble)? Sound clips are provided at the end.
Okay, here I go. This is long, so I hope you can cope with all the details, as they are necessary:
I have these two cartridges on loan (and I have to return them tomorrow) because I had previously downloaded vinyl rips done with these two carts, and I really, really liked the sound of those vinyl-rips. The carts seemed quite accurate and neutral and as if they had a fairly flat frequency response and without harshness, which is what I was looking for: Not a "typical" dark MM sound, nor a "typical" bright MC sound either.
So, this is where the trouble starts:
The downloads don’t sound like the recordings I’ve made myself with the same carts! Some people call Zyx carts too bright, but it’s as if the treble is missing on my recordings when I compare to the downloads. It’s possible that I just don’t like these carts after all, but it’s strange that the downloads all have the same sound signature even though they’re from different uploaders using different systems, which would indicate that nothing would have gone wrong in the recording or uploading process.
I think there are four possible explanations to what I describe below:
1: My recordings sound like these carts are supposed to sound like, and I just don’t like them.
2: Something has gone wrong in all of the downloads I mention.
3: None of the phono stages used for the vinyl-rips I mention follow the riaa curve, but are all top-heavy by several dB.
4: All three Zyx carts (yes, three, see further down) are faulty
So, I’m wondering if I’m doing anything wrong, or I can adjust some settings to achieve the same sound as the vinyl-rips I downloaded. I feel like I have literally tried EVERYTHING there is to try. I read that Zyx carts are very sensitive to setup, but no matter what I’ve done, the sound hasn’t changed, except for a slight change in channel balance. I’ll elaborate about this further down. One thing I did notice was that both the Fuji and the Airy were very loud when I stood next to the turntable and listened to them play "acoustically".
Yesterday, I took the Airy to an acquaintance’s place and tried it on his turntable, which was an old Thorens with a Mørch UP4 tonearm. He used PSB Imagine T2 Tower speakers. We both agreed that the recordings done on my setup were identical to how it sounded on his setup, except maybe that there was a slight speed discrepancy.
Here I can also interject that I’ve also been trying out a Goldring 2500 cart at the same time, and that was too bright for me, and even brighter than certain digital 16/44.1 kHz masters that the records had been cut from. So trying that cart, as well as trying the Zyx on my acquaintance’s setup, would rule out that there’s something wrong with my turntable or preamps.
And the last aspect that can rule out that my equipment is the problem is this: Before borrowing the carts, I went to the shop and made a recording (with my own phono preamp with its built-in convert) of the new Zyx Ultimate 100 on their setup, which I’m quite certain was an Acoustic Signature Wow XL or XXL turntable with an Acoustic Signature TA-1000 tonearm. That recording was even darker than the one done with the Fuji on my own setup. The shop also said that the Fuji was a bit brighter than the Ultimate 100.
I use my headphones and Foobar’s ABX plugin to compare my own recordings with the vinyl-rips I downloaded, so even if my headphones were broken, I would be able to hear the difference between my own recordings and the downloads (like I could at my acquaintance’s place yesterday).
Here’s my setup:
* Sennheiser HD650 headphones
* Rega RP3 with an RB-303 tonearm (2013 model)
* NAD PP-4 phono preamp
* Parasound Zphono preamp
* Also a Soundsmith MCP2 MC phono preamp with adjustable ohm loading that the shop lent me. I’ve ONLY used this on the Airy. When loaded with 100 ohm, like the NAD and the Parasound, the only difference I could hear between the Soundsmith and the NAD, was that the Soundsmith was a bit darker sounding. The Parasound is also a bit darker than the NAD. Feel free to read the excellent measurements of the NAD PP-3 on Stereophile’s website. The maximum deviation from the riaa curve is 0.25 dB. When increasing the ohm load to 1000 ohm on the Soundsmith, the treble became more prominent but still not to the same extent as on the downloads. After 1000 ohm it didn’t seem to change any further. At 10 ohm I didn’t hear any difference to 100 ohm. It just seemed strange to me that I had to increase the ohm load that much, when 100 ohm is the standard and when I read that people use less than that for Zyx. Also, the phono stages used in the downloads are not all able to even go to 1000 ohm (nor was it mentioned that the ohm load was that high). I am of course aware that comparing to a random download is not the perfect way to do it, but still… As mentioned, all the downloaded vinyl-rips have the same sound signature.
* Focusrite Scarlet 2i2 A/D converter
* Objective2 + ODAC headphone amp and DAC
I’ve recorded with both the Focusrite converter and the built-in converter in the NAD and I couldn’t tell them apart in an ABX test.
So, these are the settings I’ve been experimenting with:
* Protractors: I’ve printed three protractors: The Baerwald and Stevenson protractors from Vinyl Engine, as well as the Arc Template Generator that Conrad Hoffman made (I used Bearwald for that one as well). I couldn’t hear any difference on any of them, except for one recording with a slight difference. I’ve also tried pushing the cart 1 mm forward or 1 mm back, pushing it all the way forward into the headshell or pulling it all the way back, turning it a bit towards the spindle, or turning it away from the spindle. It didn’t make a difference except for a bit on the channel balance. With my Rega Exact cart I passed blind tests between a Baerwald adjustment and the "factory" setting with three screws (the Baerwald was brighter). In the shop, they adjusted the Ultimate 100 with a Dr. Feickert protractor.
* VTA: I could hear a small difference, but big enough to pass a blind test, between a recording where I raised the arm 6 mm, and one where I put two records beneath the mat, so it would be very much tail down. However, not much of a difference. I also heard the same difference with the Goldring (raised was brighter).
* Counterweight. I’ve tried going from 1,50 grams up to 2,50 grams. I’ve tried Art Salvatore’s recommended 1,85 grams, the recommendation of 1,95 grams from another, 1,79 grams, and pleeeeenty of other combinations, but I would mostly use 2,00 grams. No difference.
* I’ve tried to loosen the screws that bolt the cart to the arm a bit. No difference.
* I’ve used a bubble level to check azimuth (I then adjusted my arm a bit). No difference.
Lastly, you might think that the carts just need to break in. I thought so too, although I’ve always been a bit sceptical about break-in. Anyway, the Airy already had some play on it, and I was actually given another Fuji to try out, and it was well-used, but that one sounded even a bit darker (just worn, really). On top of this, the way I understand break-in is that before a cart is broken in, it will sound harsh and bright – the opposite of what is the case here. But if Zyx carts get a more prominent treble after breaking in, if breaking-in even exists, then this could be the explanation.
So, on to the sound clips:
I have uploaded the following clips recorded with the following equipment (all of my recordings are done with the Focusrite converter), and yes, the albums are all the same editions from the same countries (I always make sure of that):
1: AC/DC "Rock or bust", done with my Rega, the NAD preamp and the Zyx Airy, then the same setup but with the Soundsmith set to 1000 ohm, then the CD, which I believe is the same master used for cutting the record, then the vinyl-rip that I downloaded, which sounds quite close to the CD, done with the following equipment: Micro Seiki DD-8 + ZYX R100 Fuji S, PS Audio GCPH Phono Stage + Tube Preamp (Telefunken tubes 3xE88CC), TASCAM HS-P82. Lastly, a vinyl-rip download to compare, recorded with a Micro Seiki DDX-1000 / Micro Seiki MA-505L, Benz Micro Ruby Gullwing SHR, Past Audio C-7Super (Deluxe Edition), and M-Audio ProFire 610.
2: Marilyn Manson "Deep six" (from "The Pale Emperor"), my own recording with the Airy and NAD, then also with the Zyx Fuji and NAD, then done with my Rega Exact cartridge and NAD (I did, however, adjust the channel balance on my computer, as it was off, partly because the cart was made that way, and partly because the arm on my own turntable at the time was not mounted completely straight), then the recording from the shop done with the Zyx Ultimate 100 and NAD (detailed above). I had to adjust the channel balance here as well. And then lastly two vinyl-rips I downloaded, done with the following: 1: Pioneer PL-7L + ZYX R100 Fuji X, PS Audio GCPH Phono Stage + Tube preamp + Tascam HS-P82. 2: Garrard 401, ZYX Airy 3, Trilogy 907, Korg MR-1000. These two downloads sound quite similar.
3: Chris de Burgh "Take it to the top" (from "Man on the line"), my own recording with the Airy and NAD, then a vinyl-rip download done with a Garrard 401, ZYX Airy 3, Sentec/Nebula (A), and Korg MR-1000.
4: Queen "Self-titled" (re-release on Fame) my own recording with the Airy and NAD, and a vinyl-rip download done with Garrard 401, ZYX Airy 3, Sentec/Nebula (A), and Korg MR-1000.
5: Mastodon "Black tongue" (from "The Hunter") my own recording with both a Fuji and an Airy and the NAD, and then with an Airy and the Soundsmith set to 1 kOhm, and then a vinyl-rip download made with Micro Seiki DD-8+ZYX R100 Fuji SH, PS Audio GCPH Phono Stage + Tube Preamp (Telefunken).
LASTLY, since I figured that most of you wouldn’t have any of these albums, I have included recordings of two albums you might have, so you could compare:
Dire Straits "Brothers in arms" and "On every street" (both original EU prints).
I only have my own recordings of these, but I know that they’re both cut from digital 44.1 kHz masters, and my recordings are not very close to the CDs. The Goldring cart was brighter than the CDs, since it seemed to have a big spike in the treble.
So, here are the downloads:
https://mega.nz/#!dMZzmQxL!NnJaOtkx281lunKjeRpwSTmkKa8CUYuaEoVehKiyy-k
I hope this doesn’t sound offensive, but I’ll just say this to avoid any potential arguments and that people waste their time writing a lot of things: As you might have noticed, I’m a no-nonsense guy, so please no suggestions like "digital is crap", "you’re deaf", "buy a different turntable", or "buy brand X phono stage" or "buy new interconnects" or "buy a Nordost power cord" or "these carts are not good for that type of music" or whatever, because it’s besides the point, I’m not going to buy any of that, and I’m not I even going to debate it.
Anyway, I appreciate any and all help :-).
Thanks, and thanks for reading through all this!
- ...
- 51 posts total
Hi Dears,
I don’t whether I should post here or create a new topic. My concern is about a Zyx Ultimate that I recently bought from an official retailer in France to replace my Goldring Eroica. I am very disappointed. After more than 50 hours, I can’t hear any difference since the start and I am experiencing a kind of "dark" sound. My turntable is a Rega P5 (RB700 tonearm with tungsten CW 120g) with a 2mm spacer. Regarding VTA, the cartridge is parallel to the records, I also removed the mat just to try (2mm less) and same issue. The cart alignment is perfect and the VTF is currently set at 2.3g, but independently of the VTF value, I have this issue. I am Electronics Engineer, so, I decided to perform some tests. I put a test record with a sweep and did the analysis with oscilloscope and REW. I have a slope of about -3dB per decade on the whole bandwidth (roughly 10dB less at 8KHz compared to 80Hz).
My preamp is an Anthem STR (100ohms as input impedance). I made the measurement in analogic mode (no digital conversion). I also validated the whole measurement chain by using a digital sweep and I got a very flat response curve from 20Hz to 20Khz. Do I have to be more patient? Am I facing a VTA issue that means to increase more the tail up (more positive VTA), spacer of more than 4mm? Current room temperature is around 64 to 66F. Does my problem ring any bells to anybody?
Thanks a lot. PS: I may have not properly introduced me, so please, just let me know so I can correct that. |
Your problem is that EE degree. This is about “feelings”, not measurements. (I am joking.). In addition to measuring frequency response of the Ultimate, did you also measure the frequency response of some other cartridge that does not appear to display the coloration you perceive with the Ultimate? In other words, a “control” cartridge? On top of all that, I hope you noticed there was some consensus at the end of the old thread that the latest carbon fiber-cantilevered version of the Ultimate might indeed sound “dull”. If that is true, and if the cause is the use of CF, then nothing you can do after the fact would correct the tonal balance. |
Hi Lewm, Yes, I have measured the Nagaoka on the second turntable and my former Golring, they are both flat except frequencies above 10KHz on the Nagaoka that start to decrease. I also read the whole topic thread and some sore from the Web. I did tests with different VTA from -2mm up to 4mm, and VTF from 1.5g up to 2.4g. I have only noticed little effects on high frequencies. However I forgot to mention that I have little imbalance between the channels 1dB at 3KHz and reaching 3dB at 10KHz.which quite a lot. Azimut? AS? Correcting the tonal balance is what I have done up to now thinking it was just a break-in period that requests patience from my side. But nothing has changed after more than 50 hours. Thanks to the Anthem STR I can adjust the RIAA curve but there is possibility to act on the low medium and medium. Today the best suitable correction 450B - 10.7KIHz but with an "hole" in the above mentioned frequency range. I also though about impedance matching but it won't affect from the bass to the high and the slope would be different. And 4ohms for a 100ohms input cannot affect in an audible way the sound. Do I have to understand that is the "signature" of the new CF based Zyx cartridge, if yes, then I lost a lot of money...And it was my Christmas gift :-( I am lost, my dealer doesn't show a lot of interest about my current pain. I do appreciate any help, Many thanks. |
Dear @rorosone : I don’t know which model of the Ultimate you own but maybe the " trouble " could be that for what ever reasons your cartridge just does not mates well with your analog rig and especially the tonearm and tonearm internal wire or even the phono stage.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
- 51 posts total