Owners of Carver Crimson 275 -Caution/Warning--Potential Increased Risk of Electric Shock


What's going on?:   If you own a Carver Crimson 275 amplifier there is a real potential that your amplifier does not have a proper chassis grounding scheme inside.  There is a type of grounding system involved, but the third prong of the IEC socket (the actual electrical socket on the inside of the amplifier) is left wide open on my amplifier and and at least one other amp that I have virtually confirmed (not firsthand--only through another owner).  

What does this mean?:  If one of the hookup wires carrying power/B+ came loose from its soldered weld and touched either the chassis or something conductive to the chassis and the user then touched the chassis/unit with the power on they could get a significant electric shock. There are some seriously high voltages in this tube amp (like many amps of its topology) and the result could be lethal.

Carver Corporation's Response to Status on Grounding:  I have notified Frank Malitz of the Carver Corporation about this problem.  He responded to me in writing saying the following, exact quotation, nothing more or less:  

"the design is under review with engineering and I'll contact you tomorrow." (F. Malitz)

In the interim, users may be at an increased risk of shock and bodily harm.   I would encourage you to check with an electronics expert or the Carver Corporation for further guidance, as I'm not qualified to say more than there's no confirmed chassis ground in the unit that I have and at least one other unit.  

Finally, unless you are qualified in working with high voltages do not open your unit to check for the ground wire running to the ground prong on the IEC. Please note that doing so with or without a chassis ground should only be done by someone experienced with electronics--i.e. caps must be discharged and care taken to cause an issue.  Seek professional help. 

I'm just a music lover and hobbyist.  I'm merely relaying this information out of concern for the safety of fellow humans. I'm not an expert and perhaps an expert will rule out this identified potential increased risk as non-existent.  For now, I can say that it is my opinion that there is a real reason to believe that grounding scheme might be deficient and I will not be using my amp until this is sorted out.  

I'll report any response from the Carver Corporation as soon as I hear back.  For now, my amp will sit unplugged. 

 

128x128jbhiller

@10229 Two-prong plug devices are usually either double-insulated, or there is a SMPS that has additional isolation that protects the chassis from potential AC faults. I have several CD players like this, but I also have 30 year old preamps that only had 2-prong plugs but had low voltage transformers.

@jea48 Grounding schemes have been a matter of debate for many years in the audio world. Some builders believe grounding the chassis to earth causes hum, others do not. I agree that a Class II device with no need for chassis earth ground should have a 2-prong jack.

I agree the schematic shows signal and circuit grounds go to chassis, and that the sequence shows fuse, switch, and transformer. It would have been nice to show the jack connection first, rather than just the source AC symbol. Also, RCA jacks and speaker jacks are generally connected to the chassis, would you agree?

@erik_squires The photo shows me nothing to believe this is a Class II double-insulted circuit on the primary of the transformer (or anywhere else). It is also fused incorrectly as described previously.

The power supply has a primary side at incoming AC voltage which is what is being discussed here. The secondary side of the transformer is the other part of the power supply. If the AC side has a short, for example the power switch as atmasphere has stated, or a broken line (hot) connection, etc. touches the chassis, there should be a low resistance path to ground, but sometimes designers rely on the neutral connection at the service panel to provide that ground. However, properly connected, the fuse will blow. This is true of solid state gear as well, which can have much higher current draw but lower voltages.

On the secondary side with the HT voltage going to the tubes and circuitry, if there is a short, it will blow the fuse(s) or in circuits with virtual center tap connections through 100 Ohm resistors to ground, the resistors. Properly designed and fused, the unit is unlikely to damage the interconnects.

High-gain signal grounds (preamp, VAS, driver, etc.) are kept separated from high-current grounds (output tubes, output transistors) in most amps to minimize hum or there is some sort of star grounding scheme. Signal grounding schemes are quite varied and hotly debated as well, but they are not safety grounds.

There is ample information available that details the need for proper chassis AC safety grounding, but there may be some particular reason why this unit was considered to be safe without it - I just don’t see it based on the schematics. I’m not pro or con Carver, just commenting on the photo and the schematic.

Again, it would be very nice if Carver would provide their reasoning which may answer all these concerns.

@gktaudio

I agree the schematic shows signal and circuit grounds go to chassis, and that the sequence shows fuse, switch, and transformer. It would have been nice to show the jack connection first, rather than just the source AC symbol. Also, RCA jacks and speaker jacks are generally connected to the chassis, would you agree?

Also, RCA jacks and speaker jacks are generally connected to the chassis, would you agree?

Not directly when the EGC is connected to the chassis.

ARC used to make the signal ground connection to the chassis through a 10 ohm resistor. Same for connecting the B- of the power supply to the chassis. Here ARC used a 1/4 watt 10 ohm resistor from the B- rail to the chassis. The resistor works as fuse in the event of a short from the B+ to chassis.

(Not sure if that is the way ARC does it today.)

 
 
 
 
 
 
 

atmasphere also does not connect the signal ground directly to the chassis. I am not sure what method Ralph uses though.

 

FWIW:

As for Bob Carver not liking to use an EGC, neither did the late Charles Hansen, Manufacture of Ayre Acoustics. Do a search on AA under Charles Hansen posts with the word "ground".

.

 

@jea48 Yes, on reflection you are correct and I didn't express those thoughts clearly. But as I said, there are many grounding schemes for signal grounds. Also, I have seen and have used loop breakers for power supply grounds, but the concern here was the complete lack of an AC safety ground from the IEC connector.

I am unsure if you are suggesting that the lack of the IEC ground connection is acceptable in this example, and if so, why. That was one of several concerns raised by the OP and others.

ARC used to make the signal ground connection to the chassis through a 10 ohm resistor. Same for connecting the B- of the power supply to the chassis. Here ARC used a 1/4 watt 10 ohm resistor from the B- rail to the chassis. The resistor works as fuse in the event of a short from the B+ to chassis.