Owners of Carver Crimson 275 -Caution/Warning--Potential Increased Risk of Electric Shock


What's going on?:   If you own a Carver Crimson 275 amplifier there is a real potential that your amplifier does not have a proper chassis grounding scheme inside.  There is a type of grounding system involved, but the third prong of the IEC socket (the actual electrical socket on the inside of the amplifier) is left wide open on my amplifier and and at least one other amp that I have virtually confirmed (not firsthand--only through another owner).  

What does this mean?:  If one of the hookup wires carrying power/B+ came loose from its soldered weld and touched either the chassis or something conductive to the chassis and the user then touched the chassis/unit with the power on they could get a significant electric shock. There are some seriously high voltages in this tube amp (like many amps of its topology) and the result could be lethal.

Carver Corporation's Response to Status on Grounding:  I have notified Frank Malitz of the Carver Corporation about this problem.  He responded to me in writing saying the following, exact quotation, nothing more or less:  

"the design is under review with engineering and I'll contact you tomorrow." (F. Malitz)

In the interim, users may be at an increased risk of shock and bodily harm.   I would encourage you to check with an electronics expert or the Carver Corporation for further guidance, as I'm not qualified to say more than there's no confirmed chassis ground in the unit that I have and at least one other unit.  

Finally, unless you are qualified in working with high voltages do not open your unit to check for the ground wire running to the ground prong on the IEC. Please note that doing so with or without a chassis ground should only be done by someone experienced with electronics--i.e. caps must be discharged and care taken to cause an issue.  Seek professional help. 

I'm just a music lover and hobbyist.  I'm merely relaying this information out of concern for the safety of fellow humans. I'm not an expert and perhaps an expert will rule out this identified potential increased risk as non-existent.  For now, I can say that it is my opinion that there is a real reason to believe that grounding scheme might be deficient and I will not be using my amp until this is sorted out.  

I'll report any response from the Carver Corporation as soon as I hear back.  For now, my amp will sit unplugged. 

 

jbhiller

GFCI is a suitable replacement for two prong outlets without a grounded wire.

 

This is absolutely true per the NEC, but the assumption made is that the incoming AC would come into contact with the chassis and trip in time. I’m not sure if this would prevent electrocution if a high voltage DC supply with lots of potential energy in the rectifier caps were to come into contact with the chassis. Lots of things could come into play here and even if the GFCI DID trip those caps may be several seconds away from fully discharging through someone’s heart or through the ground on the interconnect cables.

Seriously though, not grounding the chassis of a high voltage component is hobbyist level BS.

 

The DC power supply in the amplifier is a separately derived power system and does not have any reference to the AC mains electrical service Equipment Ground system.

The high voltage DC power supply B- for the amp is connected to the chassis. In the world of the internal circuitry of the amp the B- to chassis is the ground. No different than Class II double insulated audio equipment that doesn’t use an EGC.

Looking at the wiring diagram of the amp if B+ comes in contact with the Chassis there will be a short circuit. EGC or no EGC makes no difference. (What if a power tube shorts?) It is possible the AC mains fast blow safety fuse for the amp will blow because the high voltage secondary winding of the transformer would be overloaded which would cause the primary winding to overload and cause the fuse to blow shutting off the AC power to the power transformer.

The Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC) is designed to allow unwanted fault-current to travel back to its source by way of a low-impedance (unobstructed) electrical path.

 

https://www.ecmweb.com/national-electrical-code/code-basics/article/20886140/behind-the-equipment-grounding-conductor

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Can someone show me documented case where injurie resulted from an ungrounded piece of equipment?

I know Keith Richards was shocked on stage and same with the guitarist from Kiss when their guitars created a circuit due to lack of proper grounds.  Keith passed out I think, but of course he survived! He's Keith. :)

But in all seriousness,I would think the number of serious injuries and fatalities might be low, yet finding you a "documented case" could be tricky.  Medical histories are private. It might be just as hard as finding injuries/deaths by hairdryers.  

The potential for injury or death is real.  What that potential equates to probability wise, who knows? 

Not a tube amp situation per se (microphone, but a tube amp is potentially involved)...

Les Harvey electrocuted by unearthed microphone on stage.  while on stage with Stone the Crows at Swansea Top Rank in 1972, that he was electrocuted after touching a microphone that was not earthed while the fingers of his other hand were holding the strings of his guitar.  

 

 

 

I'm sure there are more people who have been hurt by poorly designed grounding schemes and we don't hear about them in the news. 

Wait, didn't Keith Relf die from an improperly grounded amp?  

At any rate, science tells me it is absolutely possible.  Probable? Maybe not, but....I'll take my amps grounded to chassis and to earth.