2. amps-preamps
  3. 175407-20253

Let me end the Premp/Amplifier sound debate ...

I'm old enough to remember Julian Hersch from Audio magazine and his very unscientific view that all amplifiers sounded the same once they met a certain threshold.  Now the site Audio Science Review pushes the same.

I call these views unscientific as some one with a little bit of an engineering background as well as data science and epidemiology.  I find both of these approaches limited, both in technology used and applied and by stretching the claims for measurements beyond their intention, design and proof of meaning.

Without getting too much into that, I have a very pragmatic point of view.  Listen to the following three amplifier brands:

  • Pass Labs
  • Luxman
  • Ayre

If you can't hear a difference, buy the cheapest amplifier you can.  You'll be just as happy.  However, if you can, you need to evaluate the value of the pleasure of the gear next to your pocket book and buy accordingly.  I don't think the claim that some gear is pure audio jewelry, like a fancy watch which doesn't tell better time but looks pretty.  I get that, and I've heard that.  However, rather than try to use a method from Socrates to debate an issue to the exact wrong conclusion, listen for yourself.

If you wonder if capacitors sound different, build a two way and experiment for yourself.  Doing this leaves you with a very very different perspective than those who haven't. You'll also, in both cases, learn about yourself.  Are you someone who can't hear a difference?  Are you some one who can? What if you are some one who can hear a difference and doesn't care?  That's fine.  Be true to yourself, but I find very little on earth less worthwhile than having arguments about measurements vs. sound quality and value. 

To your own self and your own ears be true.  And if that leads you to a crystal radio and piezo ear piece so be it.  In my own system, and with my own speakers I've reached these conclusions for myself and I have very little concern for those who want to argue against my experiences and choices. 

 

erik_squires
rauliruegas
13,125 posts
 

Dear @holmz  : What you and other technical oriented gentlemans posted here means that if we take the Sansui, the Halcro, the Benchmark and Devialet amps and we listen to all in the same system and even that those four amps are way different whole designs using way different active/passive parts/board material/layout and the like we will listen no difference in the room/system quality performance. Rigth? I know that no one has Zero distortions but all are just really near of that. 

Now and accepting that " theory  and obviously with out been/experienced in a test like what I mentioned comes/came to my mind this question: it's that " fact " what we MUSIC lovers and audiophiles are looking for or what need we to be in an audio system true " heaven "? ? ? !!!

I think that exist several questions or even maybe more questions than answers around that " zero distortions " units behavior and those questions could be not necessarily technical oriented even that we can't " close " our eyes if exist clear and precise technical evidences/tests.

That question in other way: could any one of us imagine or think think how will be the high-end on each of us home systems with electronics that performs the same. Advantages or disadvantages? and what could happen with all electronic items manufacturers?

Yours point of view certainly are welcomed . holmz and the OP ?

R.

rauliruegas
13,125 posts
 

Any one?

 

R.

holmz's avatar
holmz
2,328 posts
 

Dear @holmz : What you and other technical oriented gentlemans posted here means that if we take the Sansui, the Halcro, the Benchmark and Devialet amps and we listen to all in the same system and even that those four amps are way different whole designs using way different active/passive parts/board material/layout and the like we will listen no difference in the room/system quality performance. Rigth? I know that no one has Zero distortions but all are just really near of that.

I think we would need to A/B those four to make a determination.

As you lead with, “Other technically oriented gentlemen…” then I think in my case that searching for some musical nirvana is an endless game. I am leaning more towards accuracy in signal quality.

Now if the speaker load was purely resistive then a cogent argument might be to choose the lowest distortion amp.

If one has the capability to determine the distortion after the speaker, then the system with the lowest distortion (particularly in the 3rd harmonic and beyond, as well as IMD) would be closer to being high fidelity. Again I am more leaning toward fidelity over a musical flavour.

That said, however, I am running a tube stereo amp at the moment. Which does sound nice.

The gorilla is the speakers, their distortions and resonances, their sometimes difficult to drive loads. I am somewhat under the belief that the passive crossover much of the problem. If we got rid of that we might have less of a phase versus frequency dependency.

However we currently have this mishmash of amps and speakers where we need to find synergy. And this leads us to listening to determine what works. Ideally the speakers would be easy for the amps to drive.

Anyhow, at some point the experience is to listen to music. I have had pretty good results with my first amp (Class-A/B) it was a bit grainy but that might have been the recordings?
The monoblock tube amps that replaced the dead Class-AB were great when they worked.
The current Stereo tube amp sound nice, and I like it in Ultra-Linear versus Triode, which likely says I like harmonics? It does sound good though. (If I could keep the monoblocks working I woudl be using them still.)

I have heard a class-D Purifi powering some smaller speakers and that system was also pretty magical with 125 w/channel.

The whole analogue side is getting an upgrade. It was very nice sounding, and all of it was last millennium stuff. But I want to try low output cartridges and need more phono gain.

These all seem like first world problems, and other than the speakers and subs making huge differences, the rest of the gear, pre and amp(s), are usually more in the category of nuanced to me, than being super obvious.

hondaron
18 posts
 

I have a related question, would there be a significant difference listening to a 25 year old Adcom versus a Pass, which arguably is probably the best sounding amplifier I’ve heard? 

hondaron
18 posts
 

I have a related question, would there be a significant difference listening to a 25 year old Adcom versus a Pass, which arguably is probably the best sounding amplifier I’ve heard? 

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