Added an SUT...not sure I understood this

I thought it was ok to mention current driven phono stages after the OP himself mentioned it.

what we found was that the SP14 had a 100 ohm resistance across its phono inputs. That coupled with a 1:10 SUT resulted in the cartridge seeing a 1 (one) ohm load. Which is clearly a bad thing and explains the bad SQ.

Per Dover’s point about the two different AT cartridges, I’ve never understood why the minimum load can be acceptably different for the same cartridge with vs without a SUT in the circuit. (Maybe not applicable here if indeed we’re talking about two different cartridges.) But you see this among those who use for example the DL103.

@dover 

I cannot fathom how you cant see the difference between increasing gain and reducing gain.

again... not the topic at hand.  The cartridge doesn't magically see a sut and say 20Ω is fine and scoff at that same 20Ω if it is a load resistor to ground before a Jfet.

I concur with lew and it makes no sense to me how a loading a cartridge can have different "ideal" values for different amplification types.  I think much of the confusion here stems from AT expecting you to pair their cartridge with their SUT.  The AT1000T has a 20Ω input setting that claims a 26dB gain and specifies a 47kΩ termination.  Simple math tells us that 26dB = 1:20 which reflects back 117Ω to the input labeled 20Ω.  In this convoluted  case 20Ω really does = ~100Ω!  Assuming there are not other loads or networks inside the AT1000T to truly provide a 20Ω load,  this small part of the discussion now makes sense.    This labeling system is typical to the Japanese SUT's and the Denon that started this whole thread uses a similar input labelling method.  Essentially the inputs are labeled  with the approximate impedance of the cartridge they expect you to feed it with with no hard and fast rules as to how those numbers were devised.

Now back to the OP and his finding that a 20Ω actual load sounds best.  Sure he possibly got to that value by following a bunch of conflicting / confusing data but ultimately that is where he stayed.

dave

Dear @woofhaven1992  ; This was my very first post in your thread:

And this your answer to that:

" 

Yes I have been using the SP14 with no SUT for some time, and the sound is great except for a touch of hum just at the level of the noise floor. I decided to fiddle with this SUT as a way of addressing that problem, which otherwise has been  persistent despite lots of attempts to address it, including having ARC work on the pre-amp twice.

You are correct that through the SUT I lose some resolution,  although I was blaming that on the crappy built-in output cable. I figured I could find a way to replace that but maybe I should, as you say, forget it.  "

You answer should been the end to your thread. Don't you think?

R.

@intactaudio 

I concur with lew and it makes no sense to me how a loading a cartridge can have different "ideal" values for different amplification types.

Wrong. That is not what @lewm said. He said -

I’ve never understood why the minimum load can be acceptably different for the same cartridge with vs without a SUT in the circuit. 

Lewm was comparing active mc amplification vs SUT's.

You really do need to read posts more carefully, unless you are deliberately misinterpreting posts.

It is clear from your conclusion that you do not understand how current mode and voltage mode gain stages work, and I would suggest if you are genuinely interested then you should do some study - there are plenty of high schools that run after school programmes that are excellent.

@dover 

This splinter of the OP's tree is in reference to the load a cartridge sees and in particular any variance from the cartridge manufacturers suggestions. 

Lewm was comparing active mc amplification vs SUT's.

No....  Lew was wondering in what world  20Ω = 100Ω. How can 20Ω be unacceptable from an active stage but perfectly OK from a SUT?  I entered my guess at an explanation that the 20Ω value is not an actual load value but the recommended input to use of the AT1000T.  This input happens to load the cartridge at just over the 100Ω manufacture spec.  Simply put a somewhat confusing manufacturers data sheet reconciles the difference and keeps the manufacturers suggestion consistent.  

It is clear from your conclusion that you do not understand how current mode and voltage mode gain stages work

Other than the load value presented to the cartridge, how a gain stage operates has zero bearing on the topic of cartridge loading.  My only reference to current amplification used a specific model (MCCI) since it has a published input impedance number of <3Ω.  To be clear... it is the 3Ω that is the issue here NOT that it is a current amp.  From the most basic perspective I want to know from you how a <3Ω load can be used with a cartridge that has a 100Ω minimum recommended load and possibly sound good?  I can't be the only person who sees this disconnect.

Since you seem unwilling or unable to answer that simple question, let me frame the same situation differently:

Can we agree that the OP's cart into a 1:20 will see just over a 100Ω load and present approximately 8mV to the input of a "generic" gain stage?   Now lets change that 1:20 to a 1:50 and then place an 11Ω resistor across the primary to add an additional load to the cartridge directly.  The voltage output of this combo will be the same 8mV into the same "generic" gain stage. Now the load the cartridge sees will be 7Ω which is well below what you would deem acceptable.  Both the measured and the subjective sonic results of the above experiment surprised me and really got me thinking about what loading a cartridge really does. It also makes me wonder what the manufacturers published values are based on.  

dave