Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy

@invalid

amir I guess you never heard the phrase you get what you pay for, of course there are exceptions to the rule, but in my experience the phrase is generally true.

Oh, of course I have. Problem is that audio marketing has gone so crazy, with people willing to accept any story behind an audio product, that the connection you talk about is long, long gone.

It is through objective testing and engineering analysis that we can figure out if you paid for fidelity, or for marketing claims.  I wish this was not the case. I wish there was transparency in audio marketing. I wish people spent more time doing controlled listening tests than to believe every random audio test. If that had happened, yes, more money could get you more fidelity.

A company recently sent me a $20,000 DAC to test. I was very appreciative that they volunteered to do that. I measure it and easily identify and implementation flaw that has long been fixed by "cheap" (but state of the art) asian audio products. The DAC weighed near 50 pounds! It was a massive beast. But it clearly had flawed engineering that was demonstrable. As a courtesy to the company I returned the product to them and didn't publish the results. My hope is that they revise it and produce a performant product. If so, then $20K is not out of  line if someone puts value beyond superb sound reproduction.

So no, your experience is not transferable. Any such conclusion means you are paying far more than you should be in audio. The only way to know is to have data otherwise

@fleschler

@amir_asr Either you are or are not the owner of ASR. Either way, my conclusion is based on listening results after measurement (if it can be measured-the CD trimmer can measure some characteristics prior to and post trimming by listening to the CD). Since I do not rely on measurements only, I (and all of my many music loving friends) use my listening skills to determine if audio equipment sounds more or less to my liking. Measurements can be very deceiving both in what is and what is not measured as well as the potential synergy with other equipment and listening room.

Of course it is me. Who can make as many typos as I can in a post??? 😀

As to your point, listening tests are the gold standard in audio and have more power than measurements. To get that though, you need to have your tests fully controlled and documented. Just saying  you have run this and that test that runs counter to what research and engineering tells us is of no value. You have to document and fully share the controls used to make sure you are only judging sound and results are not random guesses.

If you think measurements can be "deceiving," you have no idea how bad listening tests can be!  I can have you listen to two identical audio files and have you tell us they sound different. Indeed that has happened to me!  Only when I do a binary compare and realize they are the same that I realize how wrong I was.

To be clear, our sense are accurate. It is our brain that plays tricks on us. You have to learn this lesson. There is no better shortcut to audio truth than this. I wish there was. But there isn't.

@amir_asr, welcome to the forum, will you reciprocate and allow members here to post on your forum without instant bans because we have a wide range of opinions that may not be popular on asr as long as we are respectful?

You know, your members simply lose it if anyone likes a component that they have 0 personal experience with, but is simply popular to bash. Is this a dialogue that goes two ways or did you just come here to tell us that you are right and we are all wrong?

@fleschler

ASR "militia" cannot differentiate the difference between biographical summary of one’s music expertise versus self-aggrandizement I am no more important than any other audiophile;

Please forgive me for being blunt but what is this "militia" nonsense? There is no single group in ASR. In every review I post (which is about one every day or so), it doesn’t take but a handful of posts before someone complains about my testing or conclusions. The membership is highly critical and does not at all behave like the caricature you are describing.

To be sure, you better expect to get push back when you make outlandish claims without proper evidence. It is no different than going to a Jazz club and insist that the band play country music. And keep getting more and more upset when they don’t and eventually throw you out of the club. This doesn’t make them a "militia" or a cult.

We, at ASR, have chosen to have a compass. That compass says we believe what we can prove. That any statement needs to have back up that is reliable. If you don’t believe in that and want to think ever random audiophile observation is as valid as another, then ASR is not a place for you. Don’t go there, get push back and banning only to complain here. It simply is not logical to do.

And please consider that my reviews are kept professional. I don’t use terms like snake oil, fraud, etc. I create data and let that speaker powerfully to the conclusions I draw. I don’t see why anyone would want less data about an audio product. Even people who send me gear that doesn’t perform well, like to see the facts. They can still choose to keep the product, or not. None remotely get upset. So how come some of you get that way?

Okay Amir, obviously you are trying to compare the finite with the infinite.  Plumbing equipment can be tested for their intended purchase, absolutely, just as aviation equipment must be tested and retested and hopefully not modified due to in flight failures.  So your plumbing analogy is wrong and made to sound stupid as a comparison.

Sound and music are infinite.  Hence, even the most exacting computer modeling of the most expensive concert halls results in failures.   The Elbphilharmonie in Germany is that $850 million hall.  The truth is that shoebox configured halls that seat under 2,000 people sound best and used zero computer modeling from the 19th and 20th centuries.  

I want audiophiles to use common sense and logic by learning to listen to sound and music, not just use measurements as their guide.   

I have friends with $500k to $1M audio systems.   I wouldn't own their systems.  They are pleased with them (one I now enjoy listening to).  However, the $1M audio system owner is constantly changing equipment because he is unsatisfied with it.  There are parts of their high end systems that I like.  The $1M system owner dumped $68,000 in High Fidelity cables and purchased GroverHuffman cabling for about $4,000.   After hearing the difference of course.

The $500K system owner chose to change the 6H30 tubes on his Audio Research SP 28 to 6N6 (6H6) tubes.  The result was fantastic.  He was also an electrical engineer and thought power cables were all the same despite his higher end ICs , digital and speaker cables.  He replaced all six of his Pangea power cables with GroverHuffman power cables after just lending him one power cable for his amp.  Since we live a few doors apart and enjoy a wide range of music, we visit each other and can now enjoy music together (but not prior to his major 2 changes in 2022).  

This is not an advertisement for GroverHuffman cables.  Just, one must listen to alternative equipment in one's own home to make a qualified decision, like an A/B test at a Harman Kardan factory (which is about 5 miles from me).