Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy

@fleschler 

"Audiophiles are Snobs"  Youtube features an idiot!  He states, with no equivocation,  that $5,000 and $10,000 speakers sound equally good and a $500 and $5,000 integrated amp sound equally good.  He is either deaf or a liar or both! 

I think you miss Darko's point. He made no unequivocal statements that generalised that way. He certainly listens to and describes differences between gear—specific comparisons, not general ones—and he doesn't offer measurements. Try watching a bit more.

There is a site filled with posters like him called Audio Science Review.  If a reasonable person posts, they immediately tear him down, using selected words and/or sentences from the reasonable poster as100% proof that the audiophile is dumb and stupid with his money. They also occasionally state that the high end audio equipment/cable/tweak sellers are criminals who commit fraud on the public.  They often state that if something scientifically measures better, then it sounds better.   They give no credence to unmeasurable sound factors like PRAT and Ambiance.   Some of the posters music choices range from rap to hip hop and anything pop oriented created in the past from 1995.  

Have any of audiogon (or any other reasonable audio forum site) posters encountered this horrible group of miscreants?

Although Darko has done room measurements and room treatment, ASR is quite different to Darko in other respects. ASR would probably say they are measurements-first, but as Amir has posted here, he certainly listens to headphones and speakers. At times he notes subjective responses that don't exactly line up with measurements (iirc a Buchardt speaker that didn't sound as good as it graphed, and a Wilson that was the opposite). Darko says he is music-first, and doesn't do measurements on gear at all.

As for musical taste, ASR skews pretty old (compared to me :-) and the 'music we are listening to' thread/s are full of stuff may parents recall (but generally more mainstream). Absolutely not limited to post-1995. Almost the opposite. There is an electronic music thread which is much better. Amir himself appears to have quite varied taste based on his testing playlist (no hyperpop or glitchcore, but a fair few good modern composers and groups that wouldn't put me off).

Darko of course has great taste in music, which is the main reason I watch his stuff.

As for tribalism, audio Taliban and such, sure there's unfortunate internet aggro and posturing. You'll even find threads where people can't cope with descriptors like 'warm' for frequency response, no matter how patiently others posters explain common terminology. But STEM-educated people don't always have language skills. And yes, if I said that on ASR I'd get an instant slap from their mods and some penalty points to go with it. So I don't.

@axo1989 , welcome to the forum, if you look at the various threads here besides this one is there anything that catches your interest? Feel free to ask anything audio related you would like and I think you will enjoy the back and forth banter and the wide range of posters and opinions.

@boxer12 

 

Amir,

As an audio equipment reviewer, why do you choose not to actually listen (with music) to every audio component you review?

Note that I already understand (from your prior post) that you do listen to speakers & headphones. I'm wondering why you limit actual listening tests to those and don't bother to listen (again with music) to amps, dac's, etc. 

Speakers and headphones as you know have big differences from each other.  Furthermore, I can use blind testing of EQ to verify measurement accuracy.

With headphone amps, I push them to limit to see when they get distorted.  Once there, there is no debate there.

With other classes of devices, impairments get very small to non-existent.  No ad-hoc sighted test is going to be reliable and produce defensible claims.  The only believable data would be controlled, double blind testing.  I simply don't have the time or resources for this type of testing.  So measurements plus psychoacoustic analysis stand in as substitute.

I do listen to this other class by the way in my everyday enjoyment and work.  A headphone amp or speaker/headphone is driven by DACs. I do not find them to have any coloration or distortion.  Stuff subjectivists report are like fantasy to me.  I have probably 100 to 150 DACs here (no exaggeration). I have yet to fire one up and say, "oh, the soundstage has changed, bass is this and that, etc."  This is of course backed by measurements and psychoanalysis measurement.

For people who claim there are differences in this class of equipment, for once, they need to perform an AB test without their eyes and with enough trials to provide reliable results.  If they can even identify the difference, I will give them a cookie.  :) 

Our brain is a wonderful thing in the way it can adapt and change how it works.  It can work without analyzing fidelity, or be told to focus into the smallest detail.  The latter is what happens when audiophiles are testing gear.  Such focused analysis results in hearing things that were always there, but discarded by the brain.  It is NOT the result of the gear being different.  Once this concept is understood, there won't be requests for "why don't you listen with music."

Among essentially transparent gear, I identify the ones that are best engineered.  Much of this gear is also extremely economical, providing a perfect selection for your systems.  That is, if you believe in audio science, engineering and how one's perception works.

Let's say for a moment the above is not true.  And that there are audible difference.  Why would you trust what I would have to say about it?  Why do you trust anyone?  Is your room the same as theirs? You play the same music? Your ears are the same?  You see the problem?  This is myth piled on top of myth that anything reliable is stated in subjective evaluation of audio electronics.

BTW, professional reviewers were tests with speakers in blind controlled tests.  They did very poorly and could not even produce reliable let alone correct assessments!  

Notice how reviewers were worse than audio salespeople!  

"See how we behave on ASR?"

Yes, like absolute arrogant "miscreants", who think they have nothing to learn from others.Just like Amir is behaving here.

milpai "But how convenient to leave topics he has no idea about, (many), and only reply to those which are close to his heart." +2

@tonywinga Danny refers to "flat earthers" in this video about the evidence he presented on cables. You can take a wild guess who the "flat earthers" are, I have no idea, naturally, but apparently it did not sit well with "some" people, hence the attacks on Danny from the person in this thread who obviously is defending the "flat earthers" :).