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  3. 182055-125055

Occasional Sound Imbalance Issue

I posted an issue a while back where I had an issue with what I thought at first was due to my room sucking out higher frequencies from the right side of the sound. After jumping through hoops to isolate the issue, ruling out the room and my gear as causing the issue, I had concluded that it was actually slight imbalances in the source material.

This turned out not to be the case. The issue sometimes returns, but only when I physically move ANY of my components (even slightly), or mess with my cabling (even slightly). When the problem returns, it takes hours of trial and error fiddling to get rid of it. When the problem is resolved, it stays resolved for as long as I don’t touch any of my components or cabling. When re-arranging ANY of my vibration control footers that my components rest on, the problem will promptly return, every time.

This issue drives be NUTS.... Suggesting the issue is with balance is misleading - it’s more subtle than that, but at the same time very obvious (but only on certain songs which is why for a while I believed the issue to be related to source material). At times the issue is very subtle when it manifests, and at other times it’s extreme. But in all cases, even non-audiophile members of my family (which is everyone else...) can detect the issue. It’s like the air and ambience around a singer’s voice is present on the left of the singer, but not on the right, which is veiled in comparison. Also, when the problem resolves, the vocals in general sound more open and confident - possibly simply due to the ambience and air on the right side of the vocals being restored.

What’s new vs my prior thread is that I now understand the issue to be transitory, and related to physically moving my gear or cables, even slightly. In my prior thread on the issue I’ve gone through the process of ruling out any of my devices specifically contributing to the issue, testing in isolation etc and the issue still remaining (I reversed my amp’s output speaker cables too, to see if the problem would follow the output).

My cabling is a bit of a mess. Currently I have everything but my Rel subs (which arrived only very recently so nothing to do with the issue) powered by my Torus RM20, which in turn is connected to a dedicated 20A circuit. I have a photo of my rat’s nest of cables uploaded to my system pics on Audiogon. My full system details and photos are posted there as well for reference.  I'd suspect my mess of cables are to blame with EMF buildup or something, but the weird thing is that just gently moving any component, even while on and playing music, can cause the issue to show up (I suppose gently moving a component moves it's cables as well however).

On a less revealing system or components, the issue is much harder to detect. Removing my PhoenixUSB reclocker from the system for example makes it a bit harder to detect, but it’s still obvious. I’d probably never know about this issue if I had my prior speaker cables, but with my Nordost Valhalla 2’s any issue is readily apparent.

Has anyone heard of anything like this before, and have an explanation of what is happening? And suggestions on ways to prevent it from happening?  I really hate this issue, especially because it is a big, big impediment to the tweaking/testing process.

 

 

nyev
nyev OP
1,031 posts
 

So @holmz i couldn’t resist trying your idea immediately and tried moving my player/server, and sure enough the problem returned.

I next tried the generic cord plugged from the wall (not my Torus) to the player/server. Unfortunately this test won’t work. I immediately realized that all of the air, depth and ambience on BOTH sides of the vocals was clobbered. There is no way I’d detect the issue with this test… And some people say power cords don’t make a difference… :)

Having triggered the issue again, I tried experimenting with placing cables in different sockets of my Torus. Changing these in the past has made subtle changes in sound (and in some combinations not so subtle). What I tried this time is clustering as closely as possible on the Torus the plugs powering three Innuos boxes in my digital chain. This seems to have worked! Vocals now occupy the 3D space more evenly (that’s the best description of the issue I just came up with - vocals not occupying the 3D space evenly). After this change I also noticed a more confident and forward midrange.

Of note, the Torus is a straight ahead isolation transformer that all my devices plug into - there is no isolation between devices. So maybe the Innuos devices could be feeding some noise back to the other devices.

It’s too early to celebrate yet - but so far this is promising. And I didn’t need a 12 hour power-off cycle…. Things are sounding great though!

Something to consider when using Torus as a “conditioner” I suppose.  I chose it because I found that the Audioquest Niagara 5000 buzzed as I mentioned above, and there were subtle tonal balance changes in upper frequencies it made that I didn’t like (and I’ve heard that pretty much all conditioners impact tonal balance in some small ways since they are filters that can’t be even across the band - since I experienced this with the Niagara I expect it’s true in general).

nyev OP
1,031 posts
 

Experimenting a bit more, the sound changes slightly when I plug any devise into a different socket.  The changes are related to how vocals are presented in space.  Some sockets will put the vocals further back in the mix with a wider presentation of the vocal, while others will pop the vocal out closer to you, with a narrower presentation of the vocal. I actually knew about this effect already.  I’d suspect this is simply due to moving the cable around, just as the sound changes when I move devices at all with their cord connected, and not where the plug was inserted into the Torus.  However, the sound of each socket is repeatable. If you go back to a socket that sounded a certain way, it still sounded that way after trying a different socket.  

Sometimes, this hobby is very annoying….

At least with a new player/server there will be one less plug and one less device generating noise.  That said, the issue may not be related to the devices generating noise, but rather where each Torus socket taps into the transformer.

holmz's avatar
holmz
2,328 posts
 

The amp at the end of my last post I touched on oscillation.

The specific speaker cables, if they are high capacitance, can sometimes cause an amp to go into oscillation.

it seems like you are making progress, but it would not be unthinkable to have a problem if you speakers are difficult to drive with high phase angles, and the cable pushes it into oscillation.

holmz's avatar
holmz
2,328 posts
 

Buy a cheap PC scope. When the problem happens, disconnect the speakers at the speakers and connect 8Ω dummy loads

Measure a 1kHz square wave on the speaker cables simultaneously on both channels.

If the waveforms are identical, it's the speakers. If not, back up the chain until you find the culprit.

[Sounds to me like a driver failure. Could be in the other channel if it is damaged and ringing / distorting.]

Yeah if once it starts, it does not stop, then having a set fo RCAs on another input would allow a phone to plugged in quickly.

 

But I would not disconnect the speaker… that sould stop the thing.
I would just measure the signal iin-situ.

At some point we should know your speakers are, as well as the amp.
And whether there are any phase and impedance measurements on the web for the speakers.

holmz's avatar
holmz
2,328 posts
 

@holmz  , a ground loop at the panel?  If it was due just to where that particular outlet(s) ground wire connect to the neutral bar, maybe experiment with some extension cord to an outlet on a different circuit?

Nah @immatthewj just “ground loop like”. If the speakers/cables are forming an oscillator that the amp get stuck on.

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