Discuss The Viv Lab Rigid Arm

@intactaudio " If we don't accept the possibility that something outside our realm of experience might be better the chances of actually moving forward and learning are slim ".

I have learnt over the years the value of this statement, I have never sat tight in a belief, I have always embraced what others are doing and made the time to experience it in use, when ever possible.

As stated by myself recently, I do feel I was wed to the SME IV for a longer period than was ideal, and could have experienced other Tonearms as a Tonearm of interest, as part of the experience/journey with the IV. When this commitment to the arm eventually faded, I bought in a similar arm, and it was the similarity between both arms, that started the quest to discover a arm that was discernably a betterment. 

Through travelling and meeting, I discovered an arm design that stood head and shoulders above other items present on the day, on a follow up inquiry and comparing to an owned arm, the change in direction was a no brainer.   

As a result of the willingness to experience what others are doing, I have for one been instrumental in creating a social structure with like minded enthusiasts, this has now got friendships born from my willingness to travel and meet with like-minded individuals going back approx' 28 years.

Over the years, I have built on this and have been demonstrated many devices and designs put to use in systems belonging to others, as well as being loaned items to experience in my own system. It can be seen in plenty of my posts made by myself, I readily loan devices to be used in systems belonging to others. 

As a result of this, I have today in use in my system, designs produced by individuals I have met as a result of my willingness to travel and meet, I am not a Branded Equipment user, nearly all devices are Bespoke Built or a substantially modified Brands Model.

I have been fortunate, and have been able to shape a system and sound that for my own purposes is totally satisfying, and one that when the system is assembled and up and running, there are invites immediately taken up to come around and listen to some old favorite tracks along with newly acquired ones.

More recently this has expanded to CD and not just Vinyl replays, the Perfect Wave Audio CDT, is the only non-modified Branded device used in the system.

This thread has also gave me a few memory jog's, it has pushed myself to recollect some of the equipment specifically singled out for demonstrations during the late 80's / early 90's.

It has also helped me remember the times when I would take individuals out to sophisticated dealerships in the 80/90's and introduced them to the aspire to Vinyl Set Ups, from the likes of Roksan, Michell, Rega and Linn and I am sure some others as well.

I also recollect getting a group of like-minded friends to accompany myself to a London Hotel where Ivor Tiefunbrun was hosting a Seminar on Turntable Design and obviously relating the technical jargon to Linn Philosophies. 

It was around this time as well, I went out of my way to experience the EAR Design where a Quad ESL 57 was directly coupled to Valve Amp Power Supply. The influence that TPV has had, has been permanent, I probably got my first 'must have' obsession, which produced in the late 90's had a Commissioned Bespoke Built Power Amp design specifically to drive Quad 57's. 

I will claim these have been my very early endeavours in enjoying the set ups of others without too much of a personal interest attached, just present for the convivial side and the gaining of experiences. 

I do recall there was intelligence to be found around vinyl that was a stimulus, very interesting individuals who were toying with extracting the betterment from the available TT's.

In the latter end of the 90's, I abandoned the use of Belt Drives and went down the route of the Idler Drive, this is where I first encountered engineering practices from adept machinists and had a Bearing Upgrade produced from a cutting edge service from the day. The road led on to being interested in mechanical interfaces and the tolerance constraints that could be worked with, I learnt a lot.

It all changed to a new direction and excitement, when introduced to modern materials and designs that are able to work with such materials in use, that the knowing about new options leap frogged forward. There are materials in use today, that are not mainstream, probably even not spoken of publicly, as the use of them can have official secrets documents signed onto by those in the know. Being informed of such materials in private conversation and the other substances used to enable the optimised performance has been quite an experience of learning.

To have been demonstrated the work undertaken and immediately recognising how discernable the end products are in use, has been a special experience and almost unique, not encountered by many.

Today, I do believe I am in contact/friendship with individuals adept in their skills. I am certainly experiencing the work created by these individuals, that are undertaken where the materials used, is enabling engineering dimensions to be produced to the tightest of tolerances and able to maintain a friction free operation for a critical interface in a Tonearm and TT's Platter Bearing. 

Nearly 30 years in and the inquisitiveness remains strong, and the results being experienced are today the ones superseding the previous indelible memories where a very good impression has been made.

I am not apologetic in any way for my not being a 'hands on type', when it comes to micro-engineering and electronics, I am fortunate to share the company of those that know better.

Producing Structures is where I excel, buffoon fingers are tolerated better in that environment.

@intactaudio  : " If we don't accept the possibility that something outside our realm of experience might be better the chances of actually moving forward and learning are slim....""

The thread is about VIV tonearm and till now you posted no evidences/facts that could be the foundation of your statement.

Where are those evidences/facts/measurements?

Btw, even dirty stylus tip/LP grooves could cause mistracking and over 500 playing hour the stylus tip will shows an unevenly wear that could increment the normal mistracking.

R.

Dave, did you really intentionally direct that last post to me? So far as I know we are on the same side. And I fully agree with your sentiments about not being afraid to try new things. Until you joined the fray, I was the only one defending the possibility that the Viv tonearm might be any good, outside of all of those persons who own one and use it. All of those guys seem to like the tonearm. So what’s with the last post? I totally agree with your sentiments. My only point was that the reason perhaps not many purchase the very longest versions of the Viv tonearm may have more to do with fitting the tonearm to a turntable than zeal or lack of zeal for minimizing TAE.

Lew,  

the start of the response was to your point that many may use the 9" because it "fits"   I'm with you on the scientific approach of observing behavior and then trying to explain it rather than using theory to dictate behavior.

@rauliruegas 

Where are those evidences/facts/measurements?

When something fits the normal expected pattern of behavior all is well but in this case we have a fairly large break in that normal pattern of behavior when an arm with a nontraditional design establishes an observable pattern of people enjoying the results in spite of what most call an "obvious flaw"  One camp here explains this by calling the manufacturer a charlatan and suggest the consumers are suckers who obviously have no clue about what constitutes good audio.  They then proceed to parrot numbers and theories to support their opinions. The other camp here finds it interesting that he conflict exists and is intrigued to dig a bit deeper to see if there may be overlooked factors.  If you pick any topic in audio a proper technical argument can be made for and against it but at the end of the day it is an established pattern of observed behavior that sets the direction everyone travels.

@pindac 

Amen my brother!

WRT cutting level and mistracking, it seems there is not a good definition of what mistracking actually is.  My take is any movement in a direction not cut on the record is mistracking which means it is  constant occurrence from numerous causes.

When mastering an LP, and then playing back a problematic cut, what any engineer is looking for is that the pickup will make it thru the cut without any breakup or sense of strain; IOW breezes through and wonders what the fuss is about. 

But obviously the arm will have motion such that it will not always be directly above the cartridge as wished. Any offset is picked up by the cartridge as noise or coloration depending on the motion involved. To minimize that you simply have to do everything I previously described.

I suspect the longer arm, like any other longer arm, suffers the issue of greater mass. You may well need a cartridge of lower compliance. That issue alone (or cost...) is likely why the shorter arm is preferred.