My analog journey - time for a new phono stage or?


With help from members of the forum, several years ago I upgraded the cartridge on my then primary turntable. A year later I purchased a Musical Surroundings Phonomena II+ phono stage after demoing it at my house against a comparably priced Soundsmith unit. Last year I took the plunge and purchased from Upscale Audio a Rega P6 with a Sumiko Songbird low output MC cartridge. I purchased after demoing a Clearaudio Concept and the Rega locally, deciding Upscale was more knowledgeable than that dealer.

My virtual system can be viewed for all the details, but key components are the downstream Ayre Acoustics K-5xe preamplifier, Proceed HPA-2 amplifier and Aerial Acoustics Model 8b speakers. 

My issue is that I find that while the new turntable and cartridge definitely improved the detail/clarity of the sound reproduction, both the low and high ends seems to be missing complete extension and the soundstage is rather two dimensional, although instrument and vocalist placement and separation are very good and there is a seemingly clean background with no noticeable noise. I make these judgements compared to my digital front end, listening to the same albums/tracks on both. I don't necessarily expect to match the sonics of my digital gear, as I realize analog can be far more costly. FYI, I listen primarily to classical and jazz, some vintage rock, but typically acoustic music. My wife and I both play musical instruments and we attend live concerts, so we have a good handle on how instruments, bands, orchestras should sound and realize it is a fool's errand to seek to match the live performance.

I've read several threads on this forum and a number of review articles. A better phono stage may be an answer, emphasis on may. I experimented with loading and found the 121 or 150 ohm settings on my current phono stage work best. Below that and I lose high frequency detail. Above that and I end up with unacceptable sibilance on some recordings. FYI, the cartridge manufacturer calls for loading of >100 ohms, so my findings make sense. As a sidebar, I have come to realize how variable the quality of recordings and pressings are. The better TT and cartridge only emphasized this. 

So looking for more extension, deeper soundstage and a fuller, more natural sound lead me to a preliminary list of phono stages, with the goal of keeping within a budget of $2,500 or less. (I am agnostic as to solid state vs. tubes and will consider used gear from a good dealer or individual with happy customers.)

Pass XP-15

Whest Two.two or higher end model 

PS Audio Stellar Phono

Parasound JC Jr. or JC+

Allnic Audio H-1201

Aesthetix Rhea or Rhea Signature

Rogue Ares or Ares Magnum

Manley Labs Chinook - Upscale Audio's favorite around my budget

The list is long because there are thankfully many seemingly suitable options. I am open to others that would meet my goals and budget. I am hoping to hear from those of you who have auditioned or owned one or more of the above.

A few technical questions:

I have been sensitized to the need to match phono stage output to my pre-amplifier's input. One article I read suggested a rule of thumb that the input impedance of the pre-amp should be at least 10X the output impedance of the source. Is this accurate? FYI, my pre-amp has an input impedance of 20k Ohms on the unbalanced and 40k Ohms on the balanced inputs. So if the rule of thumb were correct, I need a phono stage with an output impedance of 1,000-2,000 Ohms or less.

The pre-amp, amp, my DAC and CD player are all balanced. While the Rega TT dos not have balanced outputs, I noticed that many of the phono stages have them. Is there a benefit to using the balanced outputs from the phono stage e.g. lower noise and greater gain?

Last question is whether my cartridge or cables from phono stage to pre-amp are a potential cause of the limitations I'm hearing. The cables are Transparent Music Link Plus 1.5m. I presume a more costly cartridge, particularly one with a line contact stylus could make a difference.

Where to invest the dollars??? Thanks for reading this long, detailed post.

 

 

sameyers1

Thanks for the all the helpful input.

@grislybutter Thx for confirming you auditioned a Chinook, and  for remembering TTs used.. As to design, whatever floats your boat. My gear is more industrial looking, although the Ayre Acoustics gear is clean and modern looking. But looks can be deceiving. Think about the gorgeous blond with nothing between her ears or the splashy Ferrari that ends up in the service bay on a too regular basis. Neither for a long term relationship. But if it looks great and does well all the better!

@joey54 Thanks for the input on the Nova III. It is very helpful. I will see if the dealer who sold me the Phonomena II+ will lend me a Nova III. The Rhea would be a pre-owned unit, but finding one to audition is not easy. Understand the Ayre's limited settings. Will check the manual and see if it mates well with my cart.

@islandmandan The Herron is highly regarded by Audiogoners, but tough to find, much less to audition. Congrats on finding one and glad you are enjoying it. Did you get to audition one first or sometime in the past?

@vonharaland Thanks for the information on the Sutherland 20/20. Will check it out.

@karl_desch I've thought about a cartridge upgrade and a friend recommended the Lyra Delos. But pairing a  roughly $2,000 cartridge with a $750 phono stage is a concern to me. I hear you, but hard to demo a cartridge. And you have a phono stage far superior to even what I'm considering. So how much of what you're hearing is the cart vs. the phono stage? Not easy to answer unless you could demo my cart on your system.

Again, thx to all for the helpful input.

tastes are very cultural. 25 years ago I would have thought that the Manley was cheap looking, because it was the style of my old country’s industrial switch boards.

Now it’s "retro" and pure nostalgia.

The same way, shiny silver would have appealed to me way back, now it just looks unimaginative

Sam?

After the incredible transformation the Herron line stage made on my sysem, when the phono stage appeared for sale, I got in touch with the owner, and he promised that it would be mine. My son lives near where he does, so they met up, my son paid him, and the weekend next, he brought it up to me.

Good to see him, my grandson, and my son's lovely wife. Had a great time visiting,  listening to some music, wrote him a check, and here I am with my two Herron preamps. It's the best money I ever spent on my system, bar none.

Regards,

Dan

@islandmandan Have you auditioned any of the other stages on my list? Curious to how the Herron stacks up to the Pass Labs, Whest, Manley Labs or any of the  others that are popular among Audiogoners. 

Stop reading, go hear some of this  gear on your list, IF at all possible w a TT like yours. To be brutally honest, your system strikes me as horse designed by committee…. Even tho i think highly of two important components you already own, me writing about them won’t help you much…..

I have heard all but the Allnic on your list, many times in many systems… ALL of them will sing w extension and meat on the bones w careful system matching and approaching it as a whole. I definitely wouldn’t run to more contact area on the stylus unless you've explored getting the most out of your current TT setup….

All cartridge are balanced, i wouldn’t fret the wires coming out of your TT, now i would definitely explore a balanced out phono stage into your Ayre. I didn’t look at your system page but get the Rega on a wall mount or better an HRS or similar isolation base designed for TT.

Frankly, while i love and own a Delos….i struggle to see that adding much IF you can’t get it into at least the upper half of your list AND after adding some mass to the  headshell….

iF ya end up San Diego way at Bruces, meet up for Java.

Best to you on your journey

Jim