Why HiFi Gear Measurements Are Misleading (yes ASR talking to you…)


About 25 years ago I was inside a large room with an A-frame ceiling and large skylights, during the Perseid Meteor Shower that happens every August. This one time was like no other, for two reasons: 1) There were large, red, fragmenting streaks multiple times a minute with illuminated smoke trails, and 2) I could hear them.

Yes, each meteor produced a sizzling sound, like the sound of a frying pan.

Amazed, I Googled this phenomena and found that many people reported hearing this same sizzling sound associated with meteors streaking across the sky. In response, scientists and astrophysicists said it was all in our heads. That, it was totally impossible. Why? Because of the distance between the meteor and the observer. Physics does not allow sound to travel fast enough to hear the sound at the same time that the meteor streaks across the sky. Case closed.

ASR would have agreed with this sound reasoning based in elementary science.

Fast forward a few decades. The scientists were wrong. Turns out, the sound was caused by radiation emitted by the meteors, traveling at the speed of light, and interacting with metallic objects near the observer, even if the observer is indoors. Producing a sizzling sound. This was actually recorded audibly by researchers along with the recording of the radiation. You can look this up easily and listen to the recordings.

Takeaway - trust your senses! Science doesn’t always measure the right things, in the right ways, to fully explain what we are sensing. Therefore your sensory input comes first. You can try to figure out the science later.

I’m not trying to start an argument or make people upset. Just sharing an experience that reinforces my personal way of thinking. Others of course are free to trust the science over their senses. I know this bothers some but I really couldn’t be bothered by that. The folks at ASR are smart people too.

nyev

Interesting thread. A few observations.

First, regarding nyev's "debate" with noske. Thanks, noske, for that bit of science history, but nyev's point is not thereby invalidated. Certainly, before Bell's discovery in 1880, science would have rejected testimonials of perceived sounds associated with meteors for the reason nyev points out. And that's enough to provide a compelling instance of the maxim that "not everything you can hear can be measured." noske's original post was not intended as a lesson in the history of science, but as a provocative instance of an experienced phenomenon that was not (at one time) explainable by "science." 

FWIW, here's another example of that sort of cautionary tale. Before scientists discovered (at the turn of the 20th century) the neural receptors for a taste now known as "umami," it was believed that all taste was analyzable into sweet, sour, salty and bitter. Does that mean no one tasted "umami" before the 20th century? Of course not.

But the other side of this controversy also has merit. Audio equipment is, after all, designed by engineers with educations in the relevant sciences. Audio components are devices that are designed according to the same scientific "facts" that ASR purports to measure; they're not naturally occurring phenomena. (By the way: when nyev writes "phenomena" [plural], he means "phenomenon" [singular].)

But, for reasons that are not well understood, the representation of sound is not always best served by "accuracy." A recent discussion on this forum of Nelson Pass's "harmonic distortion generator" is relevant here. Pass set out to introduce into solid state amplification some of the "artifacts" (that is, distortion) that many audiophiles describe as the "warmth" of tube sound. Obviously, Amir at ASR would pan any amplifier that measured in such a way. But many listeners prefer the sound. Who knows why? 

I'm convinced that we audiophiles too often overlook the vagaries of subjectivity—just as oenophiles often do when judging wines. On some occasions, one's state of being (whatever that means) is just better suited to appreciating music (or wine) than on others. A couple of days ago, an audiophile friend brought over his $5,000 PS Audio power "regenerator," something Amir has debunked as bogus on ASR. My friend swears by it. And I have to say, although I could NOT discern a difference in the sound of a given track with this device in or out of my system, he left it with me for the night—and I just couldn't stop listening to music. The music really "engaged" my attention, and I didn't want to do anything else. Was that because of the device? Frankly, I doubt it. Getting involved in the music is not such a rare delight. But it is rare enough that I had a great time that evening; listening not to the system, but to the music is what this hobby is all about. Even if this is a placebo effect, I do want more of it.

 

jasonbourne57: thanks for the anecdote. Richard Clark and Peter Aczel are two more "experts" who maintain the relative unimportance of amplification so long as there is sufficient power never to drive the amp into clipping. Both have done some extensive "objective" testing to confirm this; Richard Clark actually issued a challenge, with a pretty big monetary prize, to anyone who could reliably tell two amps apart in blind A/B/X tests. So far, no one has won the money.

I very much take this to heart in the design of my system. The most important element: quality of the original recording. Number 2: room acoustics. Number 3: speakers. After that, it’s all marginal effects. The debates about power cords, interconnects, even fuses is, well....

nyev

Our subjective sensory experience IS flawed.

That's an absolutely outrageous claim. IS there any evidence or IS it merely your perception.

Are you claiming test equipment hears better than humans? What a load of rubbish!

Science is many time interactive, but sometimes it requires a major adjustment in measurement, theorizing and retesting. Do we really know everything that should be measured to duplicate quality sound reproduction?

We have a half century of most accepting the Big Bang as generally descriptive of the universe that we see. At some point it was suggested that black energy and black mass existed. This gave us convenient theories to explain phenomena that we don’t understand.  Now, everything is up in the air.

Uncertainty of Science. ..

 

Absolutes in either direction are misguided. There is some usefulness in subjective listening and some usefulness in objective measurement.

Throwing either baby out with the bathwater is not smart in my opinion.

I would add that Amir also is adjusting his measurement methods and techniques as he learns more.  And there are others on that site that make different measurements than Amir and make interesting inferences about the measurement techniques and results  and the expected sonic consequences.