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Devore or Harbeths to replace my ESL63s?

I'm on the last stages of a speaker quest that has been quite difficult. For the last year I've had ESL 63s in a smallish room (14'8 x 11'10). I've got them to work extremely well for small scale ensembles, particularly jazz, and they also sound great with electronic music. But I can't give them enough space to image an orchestra, and they don't really rock (at least without Gradient sub-woofers, but that's another story...)

So after a long search, it's come down to either Harbeth or Devore for replacements. These have been my favourite contemporary speakers for years, so basically I've just spent a long time finding out what I already knew.

I previously owned Compact 7ES3 and enjoyed them, but found them unrefined in the soprano regio, and slightly muddy around the port output. The Monitor 30.1 is considerably smoother in the high frequencies and I find it a beautifully balanced speaker. It is the perfect size for my room, with one failing. It lacks the half octave of bass needed to give kick drums any force. I tried the new SHL5+ in my room but they are just too big for my room, sadly.

A friend of mine owns some Devore Nines. Very few people have Devores in the UK, but he has a fantastic system with VTL 2.5/150. It used to be that when I heard his system I would find the Compact 7s unlistenable for a couple of days. That changed with the ESL63s, but the Quads have an uneven combination of great strengths and severe limits in a small room.

So it's come down to either Harbeth M30.1, Devore Super 8, or Devore 88.

I have a second hand pair of the Super 8s at home at the moment. They are beautifully organic and draw you in to their world gradually. Other speakers I have at home have more immediate and crisp micro-detail (Harbeth P3ESR for example), but the Super 8s seem to put a root into the ground and claim the room as the proper place for their music making. Relax, they say, don't worry about the details, we will sort out your musical life.

I have only two reservations; first, they are quite lean in the mid-bass, especially in comparison to my friend's Nines, and this presents some limits with rock and electronic. Second, my system is optimised for Harbeths (and then for ESLs), and Devores would probably work better with lower powered, very refined valve amps. I don't get the same clarity that I get with Harbeths in my system.

I also have an option on some second hand 88s, but I have never heard them and I would have to buy blind. That is generally against my religion.

I guess the key question is; do I go with what I know (Monitor 30.1) or look to optimise my system gradually for the newcomers (Devore Super 8 or 88).

I'd be grateful for any thoughts from anyone who has compared the M30.1 with Devores in the same room, since that is what I can't do at the moment.

(My system details: the amps are Unison Research Unico Pre/DM. The sources are a Fletcher Omega Point 5/Audio Note Arm/Nagaoka MP500, Trichord Diablo/NCPSU). Audio Synthesis DAX Discrete with AS modded CD Transport.)
andreweast
andreweast OP
30 posts
 
Erik, you read my mind, I've been pestering a dealer to hear the KEF Reference 1 for a while. They've just got them in and burned in, but it will have to be after Christmas for a demo now, I think. Unless I go today! My feeling was that if they can keep that organic and simply enjoyable quality of the LS50 whilst giving much more extension and resolution they could be stunning. The early reports have been wildly enthusiastic.

A few people have recommended the D30R, including my old Harbeth dealer. I'm just a bit wary because I know the D28 well and whilst I admired some of its qualities, it just wasn't my style. Hard to say why. Perhaps the ribbon will give greater refinement, but that's not really what I was looking for. However the KEF dealer also have Proac, so I guess that is where I should head.

Ctsooner, I'm pretty sure there is no Vandersteen distributor here now. There are lots of great options from the US that we just don't get. It's quite frustrating. Equally there are a number of European designs that we don't have here, such as JM Reynaud, which I've always been fascinated to hear due to Bob Neil's poetic descriptions on his Amherst Audio website.
andreweast OP
30 posts
 
Regarding subs...

There was the suggestion that an M30.1 plus sub would be ideal. I've wondered about this for a while. Someone on the UK forums has been trying to do this but having problems with integration. Will he ever succeed?

When you have a small room, getting the bass right is like finding a suit that fits perfectly off the peg. In all likelihood you are going to need the trousers shortened or something taken in.

I suspect what is really needed is an active crossover, so that you can covert a two way into a proper 3 way. I learnt this when trying to integrate a sub with the 63s, with little success. Then I got the Gradient sub-woofers, with active crossover, using a separate power amp for the subs. It massively opens up the 63s and gives controlled deep bass in a small room. However it was visually overwhelming, and sonically I really needed to be further away for it to properly work.

I sold the Gradients last week with a heavy heart. If I had a big loft apartment, that would probably be my ultimate system.

It has left me wishing that it was easier to implement this kind of active crossover system with more conventional speakers.

I know a couple of guys in the UK who have developed an active bass system that is meant to work with small monitors in the LS3/5A mould. It is a tower sub-woofer that sits perfectly under a mini-monitor, and they have built an active crossover and power amp for the subs. So you can use you own amp on the monitors, and it makes the main monitors more efficient, so you can use a valve amp with LS3/5A easily.

They demonstrated this system a couple of years ago at a show with some Spender LS3/5A and the Murphy CAOW1. It completely floored me how open and rich this sounded. They played a master-tape copy of Sonny Rollins' 'Saxophone Colossus' and I've never heard such ghostly realism in the reproduction of a tenor. So it was as much about how it liberated the mid-range as supported the bass.

The problem is that they have only built 2 - for themselves! It's not been marketed as they are both very busy.

It has left me wondering how you might use an active crossover with a superb 2 way like the M30.1 and a pair of subs. The key would be setting the crossover above the port output, which is where everything gets muddy. The guys that developed this system are firm believers that ports are the worst compromise in speaker design, and after a year with electrostatic panels I'm coming round to that way of thinking. Saying that, I suspect I will accept a compromise, like most of us do.
ctsooner
2,480 posts
 
Andrew I was up at Bob's a few weeks ago listening to those as well as some from Germany. They are nice, but for the cost, there are more that I like better. Bob's a great guy and he has a nice set up for his gear. It does sound good.

I"m a Proac guy and was going to upgrade my Proacs when I went on my quest last year. I ended with the Vandy's, but the Proac 30R and 40R were the only ribbons I hear in the last year that sounded good. I personally am not a KEF guy either, but again that's me. Go listen to the Proacs as the ribbon is just a different turn for them. I heard them on GREAT tubes and top of the line analog.
pcoombs's avatar
pcoombs
84 posts
 
Andrew with reponse to your last post. You should check out this show report ( see top # 1 room)
http://hometheaterreview.com/the-10-best-sounding-rooms-from-the-new-york-audiophile-show-2012/?page=2

The comments from both the room orgainiser simpfi ( who also at the time sold Harbeths) and other listeners ( via audio blogs) was that although the Harbeths plus active Gradient bass panels worked very well together.
the Active Gradient Revolutions still sounded the best.
The room orginiser has also used the M30.1s with the Gradient subwoofers but still prefers the Revolutions.
This echos with my recent experience with the Revolutions even having owning ( and loving ) both the Harbeth M40.1 and M30s for over 10 years.

As you already have experience with both Gradient (working well with your Quads )and Harbeths you really should try to listen to Jorma Salmi's enduring masterpiece . Its easily and often overlooked which is a big mistake in my opinion.
Good luck anyway.
Philip.
andreweast OP
30 posts
 
Ctsooner, are we thinking of the same people? It is Dave and Mike that developed the sub system I'm talking about. Anyway, I'll be sure to follow your advice and give the Proac ribbons a listen before this quest is concluded.

Pcoombs, thanks again for the Gradient nudge. I had thought the Revolutions were monsters but looking at the specs now they are fairly big, but perhaps not overwhelming. Do you think these could work in a room of my size; just less than 15 x 12?

So the listening list now is:

Janszen
Gradient Revolutions
Proac D30R/D20R
Kef Reference 1

I think that's probably as much as my speaker testing stamina can take. I am starting to get bored of my demo cds.
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