ZYX "House" Sound

@rauliruegas  Thanks for your comments.

It turns out that I am the original owner of one of the DD-40 tables I own. I bought it around 1978 from a high end stereo shop. I was also eying the DDX-1000, but it was too expensive for me then. I was outfitted with a Grace F9L cartridge. So at the time, according to the stereo store (Century Stereo in San Jose, California, USA), the DDX-1000 was their top of the line TT. I bought the DD-40 knowing that it was one notch below the top of the line, but definitely not entry level.

I also have a modern table, an Acoustic Signature WOW XXL. The table works fine, although there is no means to adjust the rotation speed. The arm on that table, the AS TA-2000, is a disaster. It is very difficult to use day in day out. There's a poor arm rest that makes moving the arm out of the rest an adventure (very tight), a finger lift incorporated on the cartridge mounting plate which can move because of the difficulty with the arm rest (goodbye alignment), very low effective mass, clunky arm lift that does not fit correctly into its mounting hole, It looks great. It maybe performs well but is a #$#%* to use. I've rewired it because the cable that came with it was unshielded for part of its length. I installed a 5 pin connector at the base. I will probably put it up for sale.

I have no respect for most current tables and arms. They're ridiculously overpriced, are not designed to function well but do look good, and do not work as well as some vintage tables and arms, such as the DD-40 and MA-505. All sizzle and no steak.

I'm not sure that Vintage Knob with all its great info and pretty pictures is a great authority on quality. There's plenty of equipment that's left out. I don't think it was designed as a review medium. Seems to me that Vintage Knob is there for one to look at the pretty products of the past. 

I measure frequency response with an A/D running at 48/96. I measure from 10 Hz to 50KHz using a software based Real Time Analyzer on my PC. The Koetsu with the SUT and Musical Surroundings Phenomena II used in MM mode.on the DD-40 with the MA-505L arm measures "flat" out to just past 20KHz. Response below 50Hz drops a bit, about 3-5 dB, I estimate.

It is difficult to measure the FR down to +/- 1dB. The signal change due to 1dB is about 10%, very difficult to hear. The noise in the system creates  readings that vary with time by a few dB, It is possible to average a large number of readings. I haven't done that yet. The FR curves provided by some cartridge manufacturers show very smooth response. Either they are averaging, filtering, or making it up.

Hum and noise is about 60dB below the reference signal. Without the tube amp, the other cartridges in my system are even further down, about 80 dB or so. These measurements show a very quiet system. In fact, I can only hear the hum and hiss when I am within 15 cm or so from the speaker driver (even with the tube phono pre).

Rumble will show up as an elevated low frequency response using an unmodulated groove. I've measured all four of my tables (DD-40s, WOW XXL, and a Denon DP-57L). The spectra are almost identical. This probably means that the sources for the rumble are not the tables, but something else in my system or room.

I've mentioned in another post in this thread that I've tested the arm bearings using the WallySkater, which uses the pendulum effect to detect bearing play and stickyness. The MA-505 and 505L measure better that my other modern arm, the Audiomods 6. Don't know about the TA-2000. It is buried somewhere in a box.

I've measured distortion at 1KHz with a test record and the RTA. For all cartridges it is about 1% (about 40 dB down from reference). Some cartridges measure a bit better, about 45 dB down. These similar measurements means that there's a fair amount of distortion on the test record itself.

In summary, I have directly measured all my table/arm configurations for FR, rumble, rotation smoothness, rotation accuracy, and tonearm stiction and looseness. All the tables perform well (even the WOW XXL with the Audiomods 6 arm).

I have measured my system for time and frequency response and distortion using REW. Note: the phono circuits are not used during this measurement.

Please suggest other measurements that might show me where my tables and arms are lacking in performance. I will have a go at measuring those.

Dear @kevemaher : Well, I’m not against your choices but only trying to help with a different points of view.

This is the DD20 that’s " almost " the same DD40 where bothare true entrey level by any standard in the DD MS models of that time where the top of the line was the DQX 1000, the DDX 1000 was inferior to the DQX:

https://www.vinylengine.com/library/micro-seiki/dd-20.shtml

I’m not saying that you are wrong, no one can do it, because that’s what you like.

Now, you own the 57L by Denon and if you use the DD40 over the 57L then for you the DD40 is better than the Denon. Which " characteristic/problem " mades that you prefer the MS over the 57L?

Today TT are not exactly high price ones if you know what to look for:

https://us.technics.com/products/grand-class-direct-drive-turntable-system-sl-1210gr

If you want or needs references of vintage products specs the vintage knob it’s very good site with some comments to take in count. No it’s not a reviewer site but along VE gives you a " entry level " information for those products.

Well and only for me. What you measured on FR with the PS/SUT is really bad because MUSIC in a home system belongs to the bass range. Ok, I know that the Nova RIAA eq. is +,- 0.25 db on deviation but the whole FR of that products combination in the bass range is a " little " inferior and it’s that quality level of what you are accustom too. Maybe you need to listen several other systems with better whole quality performance levels and you must do becaus e if not then: how will you know that your new cartridge really performs in the big league?

R.

@rauliruegas Thanks for showing me the Technics table. Very good example of good value. If I didn't already have four tables, I might seriously consider it.

I don't use the Denon as much as the DD-40, primarily because I don't like the look. The big blockiness of the arm pivot area is a turn off for me. But the specs on the table are very good, in fact great. Much better than the DD-40, I agree. One test I will do Is to use a different arm in a stand alone "pod". 

It is very difficult for me to audition other systems. There aren't any people around here with good systems and high end shops are non-existent. And I find it hard to make a thorough, honest evaluation in the store.

My only recent experience has been at a show. I didn't hear any system that was significantly better than mine, but shows are not the place for critical listening.

Could you explain you comment "MUSIC in a home system belongs to the bass range"?

I appreciate your comments. You've stimulated a bunch of thoughts.

I don't want to set up an argument between those who favor measurements and those who do not. Nobody wins that argument. I am troubled by the comments that say my system is not "high end" enough for the cartridges I have. It's not because I disagree but because I don't have a means to test that argument. I wish I could listen to a different system.

@rauliruegas  The Technics Sl-1200GR you post a link to has grabbed my interest. It does look like there's a lot of value for a very reasonable price. Thanks for the reference.

Will the Koetsu, the Shelter and the ZYX cartridges shine on this table?

Dear kevemaher, you are an audiophile extraordinaire, and you merit admiration by nearly all of the rest of us. What I think you’ve revealed is that traditional measurements, such as those you have made, don’t tell the whole story. Else why can we yet hear difference among cartridges, turntables, tonearms, and all the rest of the gear that measure so similarly? You also in passing reveal the “dirty little secret” of audiophilia, that in fact we often don’t know what we’re doing. One reason the DQX1000 should be obviously superior sounding compared to the DD40 would be that the former TT incorporates a quartz crystal reference which ought to enhance its performance vs the DD40. Have you assessed speed constancy? Virtually every DD table made since the heyday of the DQX1000 uses a quartz crystal reference. I think Denon were the first to do that, in their DPXX series.