What the benifit of using a separate dac?

One last question if a Wadia player is so good why do they have to be moded?

As an addendum to the answer above - Modders tend to choose some of the best platforms to build upon because it has the potential to show off their work on it even more than a modest component might since the construction that is already there is very stable and revealing to begin with. In a similar way you may experience this if you start investing effectively in better and better components you tend to find that your system becomes more and more revealing of any changes you make to it (at least that has been my experience). That's also the ticket to the merry-go-round, or the sure sign of a bad case of Audiophilial Nervosa. Also, in some cases, components are considered for the space available within their chassis to build into (an Oppo player does not have much room to add anything, though there are mods for them), but I'd guess that would take a back seat to the consideration of what is there already in stock form. There is probably also a psychological component as well - Folks who are willing to invest serious $ in modifying a component for better performance may prefer to be investing in a solid platform that has bling factor, pride of ownership and all that. Are you going to want to spend $1200 modifying a $170 Oppo player? None of this suggests you have to choose this direction. My experience with modded products (GNSC, Modwright, APL) suggests very strongly that skilled modders absolutely can make a significant improvement to a component. I'm sure there are also those out there who do mods who are taking advantage of this, but are not necessarily as skilled as others, who do not make a big difference. If you are considering a modded product I'd do some real-world research on what folks have to say about their experiences with those you are considering. You also may want to consider what mods do to the resale value of the product. In the case of the modders I mentioned they certainly seem to hold their value in most cases.

Why mod something you just got?

Beats me. I think all the talk about modding a this or that is due to desire and budget.

I've noticed modders offer upgrades on popularity as much as platform. eg. Oppo & Waddia, Dennon, and Sony. Two of those players have substantial OEM builds, two don't.

It's also a path which reportedly offers more performance with incremental outlays, rather than an initial hefty one.

The problem as I see it is modding a whatever is ambiguous. Definitely via mods there's gonna be a change... it'll sure be different. Likely better too... but better how, seems the pertinent question.... and there are others.

One persons ear isn't anothers.

I'd be quite selective of just who and just what mods were made, were I to go that route and I'm thinking quite hard on it for my BC DAC3.

The problem as I see it is modding a whatever is ambiguous. Definitely via mods there's gonna be a change... it'll sure be different. Likely better too... but better how, seems the pertinent question.... and there are others.

You could make the same statement about making the choice among stock components. Each will have subtle, or significant differences, and the preference for them would be subjective. The reason to mod is, ostensibly, to improve what is already there. I agree with you in that I see no reason to buy a brand new Wadia and mod it unless you have money to burn - but what if your preference is strongly for the sound of a modded Wadia, rather than a stock one. How is that "ambiguous", and why is that any different from choosing a stock Wadia over a stock Opus 21?

Jax2

WEll, forgive me here, but just where does one go to hear that modded Waddia beforehand?

I think my take here is pretty simple. Although it’s perhaps not an easy thing to audition any number of CDPs, the possibility exists. Also there are reviews of these non modded items, threads, etc.

The modded units however, by and large, have little or no press… no place to find one for audition, and certainly there’ll be no in home trial…. Hence a decision to mod a particular unit to claimed ‘higher levels of performance’ are at best dark or ambiguous assertions as to the end product.

I’m not taking modders or those who have modded their items to task… it’s just that it’s a shot in the dark at best. IMHO.

Without any concrete evidence, or even subjective press available as to the results going in it does seem a dicey prospect to me and only the rep of the modding tech is accountable here… not the ACTUAL outcome OF YOUR UNIT.

Will the device once altered then be too much detail, of too high resolution, or too dark, or too warm, or too lush? ...AND THERE'S THIS... OR TOO UN-RESALEABLE?

At best some of the more prominent assertions are “following this modification it will compete on a par with units costing several times more Well… OK, THEN, How SO?

…and then there’s this… Well, I liked it better the other way or Can you make it a bit less ….. or a bit more …. ?

In all having something modded just it simply seems a big question mark to me. That’s all. In spite of my thoughts here I am pretty sure I’ll go that way next year with my DAC…

But it is scary.

Maybe a good idea would be for modders to have on hand a XYZ with their level one, level two, etc, mods and allow seriously interested folks to actually see up front what they are buying, instead of the other way around. I mean if it's a slam dunk, no brainer mod providing performance and value, then why not? Like they could have one or two already done for previewing?

hell, I'd even pay a resonable fee for that were I not to wind up buying it or having my own done that way!

Just think of all the guess work and speculation that would be taken out of the mix, not to mention the positive press that would follow.

That is the way other designers do it is it not?

WEll, forgive me here, but just where does one go to hear that modded Waddia beforehand?

Hmmm, well, I guess you have a point, but some of the modders do show up at the bigger shows (RMAF, VSAC, CES), and you could hear their stuff there. Just like hearing anything in an environment and in a system that is not the one you bring it home to (just like listening to a stock piece at a dealer), I'd opine that it's all a risk if you ask me...you just have to take intelligent risks and see what works for you. You could also query here and see if anyone local to you owns one you could go listen to. I don't do the retail thing, and rarely buy anything at all at a retail shop. 90% of what I buy is on the used market and is in some ways a leap of faith, but usually I have either heard examples somewhere, or researched and paid attention to who's saying what about a particular piece or manufacturer I'm interested in. Ultimately you don't know anything about any piece in terms of how it will work in your system, in your room, with your music, and to your ears, unless you actually try it. If you want guarantees, I guess there are none. I've found myself to be pretty savvy to the used market and I think I have a pretty good sense of what I can buy and sell something for, and what holds its value and what does not. In this way I've tried out alot of different things over the years and have been able to hone in on which direction suits me and my tastes. Many components have come and gone in my system, but a few have stayed for the long run. I cannot recall ever having taken a beating over any of my buying and selling. I usually just break even and have the experience as value added. There are modders I've come to have experience with that I took a risk on and it paid off and I would go to them again and again. Top of that list would be Dan Wright over at Modwright. GNSC also was a worthwhile investment in my experience. I've heard APL's Denon mod (at the middle of what he offers) and let me tell you it is a damn fine digital front end. I guess Alex has gone AWOL though, which is unusual for him as I understand it, and that might be, I suppose, another risk of any smaller manufacturer. Look at how many small boutique manufacturers have come and gone...some have produce great products too, but that doesn not guarantee success. It's a tough business and those who survive are probably doing more than just one thing right. I can tell you this from my own personal experience, and YMMV, the best things that have come into my life, without any exceptions that I can think of, have come as the result of taking some significant risk. I guess it's not for everyone, but it's worked for me. I understand your hesitations, Jim. There is certainly the other side of the coin - there's some wisdom in playing it safe and being conservative. Do what suits you best.