With h the Trinnov and other high end digital preamplifiers, isn’t there a AD conversion as the very first step in any way you use the device? Not just “at some point”? Also, if 53 Hz is the bottom end for the CLX, wouldn’t you want to cross it over an octave or so higher, so as to make for a smooth transition? But maybe you’ve tried that before settling on 56Hz.
A Discussion About What Level Of Analog To Stop At
So this is a bit of a friendly discussion, a sharing of information, and perhaps a bit of a what if thread.
As we acknowledge, the rooms our stereo’s reside in are a significant factor in how our audio systems sound. Now this discussion takes place mostly in the arena of speakers, and perhaps amplification for those speakers. I don’t believe I have read threads where it comes up in context to our source components. But I am wondering if it should?
In terms of myself, I only run one system unless you count my headphone rig. Truth is I rarely listen to that and I wonder if it is worth the money I spent there. But I am a consolidator and climber when it comes to audio gear. I also have an understanding with my patient spouse that I keep the audio gear in one room. I suspect if I tried taking over another room with audio gear, she would bury me in a shallow grave in the back yard.
So I have run of the living room within reason. Now this is the best room for audio in the house, but it is by no means perfect. it is 16’W by 20’ L with 8’ ceilings that are textured with acoustic popcorn. The flooring is short pile carpet with heavy pad. There is a dining room off the left wall, so only a half wall on that side. The right wall has a picture window in it. 6’L and 5’T. The back wall has french doors with glass panes. There is a little notch in the back left corner about 3’L by 1.5’D, its where they put a small bathroom on the other side of the wall. Equipment rack is on the side wall under the window. The speakers on the short wall on each side of a fireplace. Listen chair is 4 feet off the french doors.
Stereo consists of:
Martin Logan CLX ART speakers w dual Velodyne HGS12 subwoofers
Classe Omega monoblock amplifiers
Trinov Amethyst pre-amp (the DSP functions are a prime consideration in buying)
Cen Grand DSDac 1.0 Deluxe DAC
BPT 2.5 Signature power conditioner
Now all the analog gear is where it gets messy, and my consolidation thoughts are kicking in
Turntable #1 SOTA Cosmos Eclipse/SME V/Transfiguration Audio Porteus
Turntable #2 Scheu Analog Das Laufwerk No2 with Schroder CB-1L and Ortofon Verismo. Second arm Dynavector DV505 that gets used with an Ortofon MC2000/Ortofon MC3000 II/Kiseki Blackheart
Phono stages are a BMC MCCI Signature ULN, a standard BMC MCI Signature, and Esoteric E-03. Have an Ortofon T2000 SUT to use with the MC2000.
As a consolidator I sometimes wonder if all of this is necessary. The money is spent and this is kind of my audio kitty funds. I tend to keep those monies separate and often save and then sell pieces being upgraded to afford that next step. The reality is that often I cannot have to expensive pieces side by side and decide which I like the best. Since I also shop Audiogon and USAM for used gear it’s not possible to listen to candidates. As a consolidation I look at what is out there. For instance, when I tally things up I could possibly afford a Walker Proscenium that happens to be on Ebay at the moment. I would be down to one table, one phono stage, and two cartridges. One thing that stops me is that gold on the Walker is damned ugly, secondly, I am not sure I got room for the pump assembly. My system is a bit large for this room as it sits.
As I am writing I wonder if this room can really support a higher tier of analog gear than I got. I think some would argue that this room is limited in ways to compromise even what I have. The sound is very nice, better than I hear at many shows, and in other audiophiles’ homes I have gone to. We have a local audio group, and I haven’t heard anything I like better. In the past I have used the MC3000 II cartridge as a casual listening tool, but with the CEN GRAND DAC the sound is so nice I really don’t need to do that anymore. Still need the Dynavector arm though if I want to play the MC2000. Now all of these cartridges sound very very nice, and I could live with any of them. Truth is I like the Transfiguration the least. Or I think so till I spend about a weekend listening to it.
One thought is to choose one table and sell it all off and maximize that one. The other is to keep the Verismo and probably the Kiseki. Buy the very best table and arm I can with all the funds gathered once I sell all that stuff. The question I cannot answer for myself is ...is this worth it given what my room allows this system to do? I have a small amount of room treatment with wood diffusers, ART series acoustic panels, and the DSP function of the preamp. But I cannot turn this into a full-on treated room because of the basic limitations of it.
I have probably made posts in the past in other threads putting ideas like this forward. But I don’t know if I ever made a comprehensive post with all these thoughts. laid out. If you feel its repetitive, I do understand. However, if you have thoughts or ideas, I would surely be interested in reading them. Take the conversation wherever makes sense, as this is meant to be a wide-ranging discussion. Thanks for any of your contributions!
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- 65 posts total
@lewm I don’t have the schematic to say at what stage the AD conversion occurs. Is it the first step, or does something else happen? So that is why I say at some point. We can say for sure that it occurs between before the output stage, and it me the exact point does not really become that large of a sticking point. I can certainly experiment with different crossover points. I have just gotten things optimized for what I have now. What I do know is that anytime I make a change in configuration, and changing x over points will change dispersion patterns, this means I will have to run new calibrations, and that is an involved process. So its just not a matter of changing an input on a screen and saying this sounds better than that.
This is currently what I have set up. Top is before calibration, middle is after DSP correction.
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Dear @neonknight : Thank's. So you are using the subs as bass reinforcement wider bass frequency, nothing wrong with that.
The bass subs wider frequency in that frequency range is not the main purpose of true subs ( as yours. ) but a side benefit. The main purpose for the room/system is try to lower the IMD and THD distortions levels from the main speakers. Yours crossover at 360 hz and that means that the frequency range from around 35hz to 400hz is running in that part of the pannel developing those high distortions especially the Intermodulation and if you crossover ( high pass ) the main speakers at 100hz and from there the subs you will lower those distortions that certainly affects the integrity of the audio signal reproduced by the ML, so you can win a lot at every frequency range doing that: your system quality level performance will improves over what you have rigth now. Yes, as you explain it you have to run that " involved process " but you can try and can attest the rewards. There is no way not to achieve those rewards. Of course that maybe you like the change or maybe not but this is a different issue.
I just saying because putting at minimum any kind of distortions in any room/system always put us " nearer to the recording ".
R. |
@rauliruegas The thing to remember is the NATURE of the bass. Planar open baffle style bass is different in terms of attack, harmonics, and decay than conventional woofers. Even if they are in sealed boxes and servo controlled. The higher you bring the crossover the greater the risk of hearing the difference in the nature of the speakers and subwoofers. |
Dear @neonknight : Even that what you posted makes sense and is what we normally think things are that you really don't know till you test it.
@mijostyn , owns the top SoundLabs and runs with subs crossing at 100hz and using a high pass filter at more or less same frequency. I f he want it he can chime here about with first hand experiences that I have too but not in my system.
R. |
- 65 posts total