For an error this discussion was removed, the following were the original responses
02-12-15: Zd542
When you're driving, have you ever noticed every so often you see some kid that took a perfectly good car and destroyed it for no reason at all? The ones where it looks like someone stepped on the car and the wheels are sticking out at odd angles, the engine sounds like a detuned lawn mower, 2 tone primer, etc... That's what happened to that poor Thiel speaker. What used to be, "One of the most complex crossover ever made", is replaced by something that is not.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-12-15: Rx8man
Zd, they're also dragging the ruined P.O.S. one inch off the pavement with a big fart muffler hanging down.
Then there's the over-sized "ghetto" wheels on beautiful muscle cars, makes me puke.
Crossovers on the other hand, you better know what the hell you're doing or stay out, measurements alone don't suffice.
Rx8man (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-12-15: Cheviot
@Zd542: I think you are on the wrong way, that crossover is not "replaced", it remains there but with the possibility to be driven by 2 or more amplifiers. The loudspeakers at the owner will can be connected as before the modification, so there is no destruction whatsoever...
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-12-15: Zd542
"02-12-15: Cheviot
@Zd542: I think you are on the wrong way, that crossover is not "replaced", it remains there but with the possibility to be driven by 2 or more amplifiers. The loudspeakers at the owner will can be connected as before the modification, so there is no destruction whatsoever..."
Just because they did the mods and the speaker still works, doesn't mean that there was no destruction done. Thiel is not a typical speaker. Before they started fooling with it, it was time and phase correct. Very few speakers can make that claim, its pretty rare. By doing those mods, they destroyed what made that speaker special. If you're not familiar with time and phase correct speakers, check out Thiels web site. Also look at Vandersteen and Green Mountain Audio. There are the only companies that I know of that are currently making speakers with this type of design.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-13-15: Cheviot
@Zd542: I confirm you are on the wrong way. Your motivations are weak and superficial. Don't think that the people that have made these mods are kids just playing with toys with any knowledge of the matter! Dissanayake (the owner of that website) is in the audio field since 1967 and certainly knows what he is doing! Have you visited his photogallery page?
@Zd542 & Rx8man: Moreover in Europe they don't modify cars to make them bumping or mount big wheels. There are some serious modders like Brabus and AMG for Mercedes, Gemballa for Porsche, Hennessey for Ferrari. Oh yes also Ferrari.
Everything is improvable even the best.
When you are dealing with semi-industrial processes you can bet that a total artisan one can better them, with the right move and the right project. This isn't a task for everyone, this requires courage and a good mind.
Time and phase caracteristics are not altered at all if you use two, three, or five identical amps. The difference is that this time you can use less power.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-13-15: Zd542
"02-13-15: Cheviot
@Zd542: I confirm you are on the wrong way. Your motivations are weak and superficial. Don't think that the people that have made these mods are kids just playing with toys with any knowledge of the matter! Dissanayake (the owner of that website) is in the audio field since 1967 and certainly knows what he is doing! Have you visited his photogallery page?"
He has pictures? I take it all back!! He definitely knows what he is doing if he has pictures, my mistake.
"Time and phase caracteristics are not altered at all if you use two, three, or five identical amps. The difference is that this time you can use less power."
I would explain why that's not true, but it would be a waste of time because I don't have pictures to back it all up.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-13-15: Maybay
So, if I get the picture, the crossover isn't altered but only divided?
Maybay (Answers | This Thread)
02-13-15: Cheviot
@Zd542: I appreciate your acute humor but everyone of that pictures is an absolute masterpiece hand made, the Italian audio-magazine Suono and Videohifi.com web-magazine have my identical opinion.
I would explain why that's not true, but it would be a waste of time because I don't have pictures to back it all up.
You would explain why that's not true but you can't, because you haven't any argument to prove that.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-13-15: Rcprince
The "whrrring" sound you hear when you go to the link is the sound of poor Jim Thiel spinning in his grave.
I guess one question I have is why would anyone want to buy 2 to 5 separate amplifiers, and associated interconnects and speaker cables, rather than one well-designed amplifier with the necessary power to handle the speakers.
Rcprince (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-13-15: Zd542
"You would explain why that's not true but you can't, because you haven't any argument to prove that.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
I don't need to argue anything. The guy removed the old crossovers and binding post panels from the speakers and ran new speaker wires from the drivers to the new binding post plate he made. So, now the speakers are back together but they're missing something. Crossovers. There's no crossovers in the speakers. Since its probably not a good idea to have the amps power each individual driver directly with no crossover in between, he now needs to use an external active crossover. In doing so, he won't be able to keep the speakers time and phase correct. Like I said before, he took a good speaker and made crap out of it.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Cheviot
02-13-15: Maybay
So, if I get the picture, the crossover isn't altered but only divided?
Exactly. I am sorry that someone here has misunderstood the mods done, and I really don't like to go on with any verbal clash.
Those mods aren't just like throwing away the cross and running cables directly from the drivers (this would have been stupid), but something much more complex: like respect the original circuit and find the exact points where divide it into 5 filters. I repeat: the crossover remains in its place!
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Imhififan
A Thiel akubarik passive?
Imhififan (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Fisick
Rcprince:
...
I guess one question I have is why would anyone want to buy 2 to 5 separate amplifiers, and associated interconnects and speaker cables, rather than one well-designed amplifier with the necessary power to handle the speakers.
I think this is to use less power per amp. When you connect 5 or 6 drivers to a complex crossover like that, the power drain could be huge and hard to handle for a single amp. In the difficult musical passages it's easy for one amp to run out of power.
Fisick (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Zd542
"Exactly. I am sorry that someone here has misunderstood the mods done, and I really don't like to go on with any verbal clash.
Those mods aren't just like throwing away the cross and running cables directly from the drivers (this would have been stupid), but something much more complex: like respect the original circuit and find the exact points where divide it into 5 filters. I repeat: the crossover remains in its place!
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
The only person that misunderstood anything here is you. Go to the pictures that you referenced. Chose the sort function that goes from oldest to newest, and follow the pictures in order. You'll see that upon completion, the speaker is put back together and the old crossovers are not in the speakers. The only thing this guy did was remove the stock crossover and the internal speaker wires. He then ran new speaker wires to a plate he made with 5 sets of binding posts. There are no crossovers in those speakers. You claim that he did this so it would take less power to drive the speakers. You're correct at least in that. But the only way to do this is to bypass the passive crossovers and go with an active. I told you in my other post that it would be a waste of time in explaining this to you. This is the 2nd time I'm doing so. The only person who's guessing at anything here is you. Can you show me where I'm wrong?
"Those mods aren't just like throwing away the cross and running cables directly from the drivers (this would have been stupid)"
I at least agree with that.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Cheviot
Call the doctors, call the doctors! This is my last message to Zd542:
Why, if as you say there are no crossovers in the speakers: in picture 16 is the guy pointing some place in the cross? And why in picture 17-18 the circuit layout is carefully retrieved from the board? And in pictures 21-22-23-24 (at the end of the set) the same guy is designing on paper the schematic, to throw then it away? It makes no sense. As it makes no sense to buy a 9.200$ loudspeakers pair (in EU much more) and destroy a crucial part of them.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Zd542
"Why, if as you say there are no crossovers in the speakers: in picture 16 is the guy pointing some place in the cross?"
Don't know. Ask the guy.
"And why in picture 17-18 the circuit layout is carefully retrieved from the board? And in pictures 21-22-23-24 (at the end of the set) the same guy is designing on paper the schematic, to throw then it away?"
I would suspect he would need that info for the new crossover. But its just a picture and you would have to ask him that.
"02-14-15: Cheviot
Call the doctors, call the doctors! This is my last message to Zd542:
It makes no sense. As it makes no sense to buy a 9.200$ loudspeakers pair (in EU much more) and destroy a crucial part of them.
You would explain why that's not true but you can't, because you haven't any argument to prove that."
Going by your pictures, it clearly shows the crossovers out of the speakers after they are already finished. Just look at the position of the new wires that he runs down the inside of the cabinet and the position of the new binding post plate he makes. Its in the wrong spot. Its up much higher up then where they need to be. But don't take my word for it, look at the pictures.
Here's a picture of the back of the speaker before the crossover comes out.
tinypic.com#.VN-jHV2Cgr4
See the crossover. Its kind of hard to miss. Now look at this picture.
tinypic.com#.VN-jjl2Cgr4
This is the speaker on its way back together. See all the brand new white insulation he stuffs in the crossover USED to be.
The funny part here is all this proof that you asked for, and I'm giving isn't even necessary. In order to do as you say and modify the speaker in such away so it accepts multiple amps and is much easier to drive, you have to remove or bypass the passive crossover and use an active. There's no other way to do it. It has to be done that way.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Cheviot
"Aaaaaaaaaaauuuaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaauhaaaaaaaa"
Don't worry,
it's the siren, I've called 911.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Zd542
"02-14-15: Cheviot
"Aaaaaaaaaaauuuaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaauhaaaaaaaa"
Don't worry,
it's the siren, I've called 911.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
You'll have to do better than that, I get them every day. What's the matter? You don't want to talk about the speakers any more? lol. Smart move.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-15-15: Cheviot
As anyone can see in pictures 47-48-49-50 the crossovers are there, playing with the loudspeakers, as I told you in the first post.
I hope this helps for all!
I would be pleased if the owner of this system would like to add something to the discussion.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-15-15: Zd542
You're good. I'll give you that much. I didn't see that one coming. You win, and well played.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-16-15: Swampwalker
So the purpose of that exercise was to take the crossover out of the cabinet...to make it a CS 5 with outboard crossover?
Swampwalker (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-16-15: Cheviot
@Swampwalker: the real purpose if this complex operation that has taken 1 week of hard work, a lot of courage and expertise was to use multiple single ended class A tube amps on the different ways. The outboard crossover with the new high quality cables and the air base suspension of the loudspeakers added a lot of fine details to the sound presentation of the CS5, so that Jim Thiel would have been proud of.
You have to consider the enormous current backwave that 6 drivers like those of the CS5 send back to the amp to understand this modification. A very high dumping factor of a single amp, in this case, can be insufficient to obtain the best performance of the loudspeaker system.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-15-15: Imhififan
Please refer to www.stereophile
a passive 5way crossover that allow the user to biwire, triwire, quadwire, or quintwire. One could power a single Akurate 242 with up to five mono amplifiers, if desired; for presumably even greater performance....
Imhififan (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-15-15: Shakeydeal
"It makes no sense. As it makes no sense to buy a 9.200$ loudspeakers pair (in EU much more) and destroy a crucial part of them."
Bingo! You finally get it. It makes no sense to buy an expensive speaker then modify the hell out of it so that it isn't even what you bought in the first place anymore. Sill actually.
Shakey
Shakeydeal (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-16-15: Cheviot
@Shakeydeal: see my previous reply to Swampwalker, the phrase you quote refers like a proof ab absurdo to the crossovers that, as a matter of fact, aren't touched.
But that is not my opinion about the upgrade. I think they still are Thiels CS5 with so much more to reveal!
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-16-15: Zd542
"Bingo! You finally get it. It makes no sense to buy an expensive speaker then modify the hell out of it so that it isn't even what you bought in the first place anymore. Sill actually.
Shakey"
Don't waste your time. We've been trying to tell him this for days. He's either the butcher himself, or knows him, and is taking all of this very personally. He challenged me to come up with a reasonable argument as to why the speakers are no longer time and phase correct, and I was able to do so. Conclusively. Using the pictures he referenced, I was able to prove to him that the xovers were removed from the speaker, as they would have to be if you wanted to access driver individually, and would need to use an active xover for it all to work properly and get the efficiency you would need to make it an easier load for the amps. So his response was to get new pictures posted over night so he could have new ammo to fuel his argument. I have to give him credit. Didn't see that one coming.
Cheviot,
No doubt you read the above and are now flipping out. I know, its crazy. I'll do anything to win the argument. That's what you'll say. I told you before that I didn't need to argue anything, and I still don't. We both know you somehow got those new pics posted. We could just leave it at that. And to be honest, I do have a certain amount of respect just for your will not to give up. Its creative and caught me completely off guard. Or, you could issue another challenge, and ask me to prove it. We can do it that way too. I'll prove you wrong one and make you look like a fool one more time.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-17-15: Cheviot
Imhififan
Please refer to www.stereophile
a passive 5way crossover that allow the user to biwire, triwire, quadwire, or quintwire. One could power a single Akurate 242 with up to five mono amplifiers, if desired; for presumably even greater performance....
Yes, if I remember well that is an option that Linn has offered since the Isobarik model came out. In 1989 I listened to Isobarik with three LK280 power amps, each driving one way of the two channels: very detailed and full-bodied sound!
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-17-15: Cheviot
02-14-15: Fisick
I think this is to use less power per amp. When you connect 5 or 6 drivers to a complex crossover like that, the power drain could be huge and hard to handle for a single amp. In the difficult musical passages it's easy for one amp to run out of power.
Precisely, taking control of a big loudspeaker it's not an easy task for a single power amp; reaching the best performances that a loudspeaker system can achieve, it's another step that could require to free the project of its (few, as in this case) commercial limitations.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-17-15: Rcprince
If I'm not mistaken, the Linn system basically put the crossover slopes into the amplifiers themselves (at least that's how they did it in their "Aktiv" systems), thereby limiting the amps' bandwidths. So you have the benefit of an outboard active crossover to replace the passive crossover in the speaker. I heard that demonstrated, and it did seem to sound better than running one amp through the passive crossover network, but the fact is that you still needed the active crossovers in the amps for it to work. Don't know what the system you listened to in 1989 was, but my experience was in the 90s.
Rcprince (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-17-15: Cheviot
@Rcprince: the system I listened to was with three stereo power amps driving the internal passive crossovers of the speakers, that since that time, offered this intelligent option. Nowadays I think that with Linn products you can choose to use passive or active crossovers (these one, as you say, contained in the amps). Anyway I think, like Jim Thiel did, that a good well engineered passive filter is the preferable option.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-23-15: Fisick
02-16-15: Zd542 ...I was able to prove to him that the xovers were removed from the speakers...
You proved to be wrong in this thread, try elsewhere.
Fisick (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-23-15: Maybay
Zd542: ...Or, you could issue another challenge, and ask me to prove it. We can do it that way too. I'll prove you wrong one and make you look like a fool one more time.
Cheviot has demonstrated that the crossovers remained there as part of the loudspeakers and you were wrong. He said that they were extracted from the speakers since the opening post. Moreover the caption on Dissanayake's site clearly states: "Thiel CS5 modifications by Dissanayake, to obtain a five ways multiwiring crossover panel, in four steps!", haven't you seen that? The only fool here seems to be you.
Maybay (Answers | This Thread)
02-23-15: Zd542
"The only fool here seems to be you."
Maybe. It certainly wouldn't be the first time someone has called me a fool.
If you read the posts, its clear that Cheviot is a fan of the mods, but really doesn't know exactly what was done. So as he is arguing the points that he assures us to be true, things keep changing.
"@Zd542: I think you are on the wrong way, that crossover is not "replaced", it remains there but with the possibility to be driven by 2 or more amplifiers."
"@Zd542: I confirm you are on the wrong way. Your motivations are weak and superficial. Don't think that the people that have made these mods are kids just playing with toys with any knowledge of the matter! Dissanayake (the owner of that website) is in the audio field since 1967 and certainly knows what he is doing! Have you visited his photogallery page?"
"@Zd542: I appreciate your acute humor but everyone of that pictures is an absolute masterpiece hand made, the Italian audio-magazine Suono and Videohifi.com web-magazine have my identical opinion."
"Those mods aren't just like throwing away the cross and running cables directly from the drivers (this would have been stupid), but something much more complex: like respect the original circuit and find the exact points where divide it into 5 filters. I repeat: the crossover remains in its place!"
He was right about making a connection plate with connections for the individual drivers. But no one was arguing that point. It really was clear from the pics. "I repeat: the crossover remains in its place!". Really. Looking at the pics, I already proved that wasn't the case. They were removed and some type of cotton or insulation was stuffed it where the xover used to be.
So far, this is all great, but every one keeps bringing up the pics, so its only fair to take a closer look at them.
"Why, if as you say there are no crossovers in the speakers: in picture 16 is the guy pointing some place in the cross? And why in picture 17-18 the circuit layout is carefully retrieved from the board? And in pictures 21-22-23-24 (at the end of the set) the same guy is designing on paper the schematic, to throw then it away?"
If you have to reference pics to support your case, those would be the ones. But just because they are the best pics to reference, they by no means make his case. You can just reread my post for the details as to why this is so. And at this point, thats it. The only thing we can conclude was that the xovers were removed and some type of mods were done to the speakers.
Then something interesting happens. I wake up Sunday morning and checked my emails and posts, etc... and I happen to see this post.
"02-15-15: Cheviot
As anyone can see in pictures 47-48-49-50 the crossovers are there, playing with the loudspeakers, as I told you in the first post. I hope this helps for all! I would be pleased if the owner of this system would like to add something to the discussion."
Well, he's at least partially right. Pics 47-48-49-50 are clearly the ones I would use if I was Cheviot trying to make his case. What I find interesting about these pics, is that they were posted overnight. Almost like they were put there so someone can win an argument. No one in their right mind would reference pics 17,18,21,22,23 and 24 if pics 47,48,49, and 50 were there. So now you are going to say that I'm grasping at straws and that I'll say anything I can to win the argument and not look stupid. Maybe. But I already made the case that I don't have to argue anything. Digital pictures are like digital music files in that they both use tags that hold meta data. You can tell your web browser to show picture tags. The dates that pics 47,48,49 and 50 showed on their tags was that they were added just several hours before. Overnight. Literally.
Now why would that be? The only reason that I can think of, is so someone can win an argument. Adding new pics overnight. lol. Well, since we have new pics, lets have a look at them as well. The 2 best pics, 48 and 49, leave me with some questions. The pics don't really show how anything is connected. Not clearly anyway. The only thing that stands out, is that the xover looks like it was just thrown over a bunch of speaker cables. They don't clearly show any wires connected to the xover at one end and the speaker at the other end. Its just a bunch of wires running under the speakers to where ever. I mean, if it were my masterpiece of engineering, I'd have a little pride in how I ran all those cables. Not only that, I thought the whole project was done in order to use multiple amps. The pics only show 1 set of speaker cables that look like they go to some type of amp (the thick ones at the bottom with red and blue ends). Where's the rest of the cables that you will need for more than 1 amp? No need to do all that work for just 1 pair of cables and 1 amp.
So, back to the original question.
"The only fool here seems to be you."
I guess it depends on what you consider a fool to be. I'm not the one who butchered a perfectly good pair of expensive speakers, and make up a bunch of lies in an effort to cover up what can only be considered, at best, an abortion. Maybe you can post more pics and get it right this time. Make shure you don't mess the tags up again.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-26-15: Unsound
In that Jim Thiel made adjustments in his cross-over to accommodate for fractions of and inch in time alignment, I just hope the modifier has access to equipment (anechoic chamber?) for measurements like square wave response, step response, etc., before considering such an endeavor. Unless I could get an extended audition I wouldn't touch these modified speakers with a 10' pole. Seems like an experiment that could easily come to be a very costly mistake. I can just imagine Jim turning in his grave.
Unsound (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-27-15: Cheviot
All of you should just imagine, or know that, when you sleep, you keep turning in your bed sometimes to find a better position to lay quietly. I think it's the same condition.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-27-15: Zd542
"Unless I could get an extended audition I wouldn't touch these modified speakers with a 10' pole."
What about if they modified the pole by chopping it up into little pieces and then glued it back together, so that it's now an audiophile pole to match the speakers?
"02-27-15: Cheviot
All of you should just imagine, or know that, when you sleep, you keep turning in your bed sometimes to find a better position to lay quietly. I think it's the same condition.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
Agreed. But just imagine if I had those poor butchered Thiels. I wouldn't be able to get any sleep.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-28-15: Unsound
Ha!
Open a thread on a forum and then suggest others "...lay quietly."
Perhaps you're not aware of what Thiel had previously said on this very subject?
Unsound (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-28-15: Cheviot
@Unsound: It was only a joke Unsound, you said Jim is turning in its grave, I don't think so, I said if he is turning it's only to find a better position.
There's no need of anechoic chambers or measurements you name, if you respect the original path of the circuit, like in this case! It's the third time I say this, if you don't accept that, it's not a problem of mine.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-28-15: Zd542
Cheviot,
I'm just curious and I'd like to ask a question. If you choose not to answer it, I'll understand. Assuming that you have no direct involvement with the person who modified the Thiels (By the looks of it, from reading their posts, its probably Maybay or Fisick), why are you still so loyal and willing to believe these people after they went and added those extra pics to the web site, just to win an argument? It doesn't make any sense. If you take a step back and try to look at the situation objectively, there's more holes in their story than they drilled into the speakers.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-28-15: Zd542
"There's no need of anechoic chambers or measurements you name, if you respect the original path of the circuit, like in this case! It's the third time I say this, if you don't accept that, it's not a problem of mine.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
Sorry, but I forgot to put this comment in my last post. The above statement is not true. The speaker is no longer time and phase correct. You don't have to take my word for it. Just look up the requirements for making a speaker and you can see for yourself.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-28-15: Fisick
Going a little deeply into what has been done I think there is nothing to be scandalized by.
Cheviot says that the goal was to free the project of the few commercial limitations it had, seeing picture n° 11, I have to say that the original one is a 1$ single-wiring connecting tap on a 9.200$ loudspeaker, not a very good thing. Those installed after the mods are 5 high quality taps with solid copper contacts on the back, see pictures n°41-43.
I don't see anything wrong in that.
The original internal cables, in picture n° 25-27, are identical for every driver and seem to be nothing special as for gauge and quality, probably a beefier cable like that used in the mods adds some little fine detail to the sound.
I was expecting to see also a better material for the original board on which the crossover is mounted. A particle board it's not a good thing for its variations in many electronic values when humidity and temperature change.
So, there is nothing completely absurd in these mods and maybe something more is still possible (changing e.g. the material of the crossover board). I really don't understand the blind hate of someone here that seems to have been punctured by a tarantula or some strange insect.
Fisick (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-02-15: Zd542
At first glance, I can see how you would say that there is nothing absurd about these mods. But when you look at the design, its clear that the speaker is no longer time and phase correct. Why is that important? Because its the most important feature of Thiel speakers. That's what makes them special.
"Time and phase caracteristics are not altered at all if you use two, three, or five identical amps. The difference is that this time you can use less power.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
He's wrong about that. If you connect 2 or more amps that are exactly the same, to the speaker after the mods, they're not exactly the same. He thinks they are, but they're not. The problem you run into using multiple amps where each amp connects to a different point on the xover and speakers, is that every thing is now isolated. So if you use 5 amps, like this, you in effect have 5 little audio systems, all working independent of each other. As you no doubt already know, an amps power output will change depending on frequency, which changes with resistance. Simply put: all 5 amps will be putting out a different amount of power, all at the same exact time. And that leads to 2 issues. First, an amps sound quality will vary depending on how hard its asked to work. At any given time, one amp may be straining and another may not be. So even though the amps are identical, they sound different.
The other issue if volume. Since everything is now isolated and separate, you have no way of controlling volume. Not overall volume, but volume for each speaker driver. There's no way to keep all the drivers at their proper volumes like they used to, before the mods. As you can imagine, having all 5 speaker drivers playing at different volumes relative to each other, leaves you with a big problem. You need to control volume for each different driver, and to do that you need to use an active xover. And that's where time and phase goes right out the window. All the different gain setting for each of the drivers will alter phase (assuming they're not already out from all the other stuff they did to the speaker.). So, it becomes a trade-of. They're not my speakers, so the owner can do whatever they wish to them. But I was attacked because I had a difference of opinion, and nothing more. What gets me is, why did Cheviot start a discussion for? He flips out when people have a different opinion than him. If you can't handle the varying opinions, it might be best to not get involved in the first place.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-02-15: Maybay
02-27-15: Zd542
...What about if they modified the pole by chopping it...
The only thing chopped here have been your bad language against Cheviot in your post of the 02-14-15 by the Moderator of this thread. You are ridiculous. I can understand why he doesn't want to answer you. Please, stop trolling here.
03-02-15: Zd542 ...If you connect 2 or more amps that are exactly the same, to the speaker after the mods, they're not exactly the same. He thinks they are, but they're not...
Reading what you say it's even worst: so you are writing a new audio bible here and projects like the Linn Isobarik and Akurate 242 named before and countless many others that encourage multi-amplification are crap for you? Time and phase characterisics of that loudspeaker have nothing to deal with what you refer to as volume or other silly things (active crossovers? Here there aren't, gain settings? Drivers have no gain). You have so much confusion in your head.
It seems here that Zd is having a nightmare since two weeks now: he dreams Cheviot "overnight" like a butcher, but it's only a bad dream for him. :) :)
Maybay (Answers | This Thread)
03-02-15: Zd542
"Time and phase characterisics of that loudspeaker have nothing to deal with what you refer to as volume or other silly things (active crossovers? Here there aren't, gain settings? Drivers have no gain). You have so much confusion in your head."
Clueless idiot. I guess it was you that destroyed the Thiels since you have so much invested into "winning" this argument. Now you're comparing this ridiculous hack job to Linn? lol. The funny thing is, you're right. Start off with a nice pair of Thiels and end up with a pair of Linn. Linn speakers sound so bad, they Kan't even spell them right. Well done. Keep up the good work. Can't wait to see what you'll akomplish next.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-02-15: Zd542
To anyone other than Maybay that may be following this, he selected a piece of what I said that may be confusing.
" 03-02-15: Zd542 ...If you connect 2 or more amps that are exactly the same, to the speaker after the mods, they're not exactly the same. He thinks they are, but they're not..."
Its one of those statements where if you take it out of context, like he does, it may not be clear. Here's a copy of whole statement, not just a piece selected just to argue.
"He's wrong about that. If you connect 2 or more amps that are exactly the same, to the speaker after the mods, they're not exactly the same. He thinks they are, but they're not. The problem you run into using multiple amps where each amp connects to a different point on the xover and speakers, is that every thing is now isolated. So if you use 5 amps, like this, you in effect have 5 little audio systems, all working independent of each other. As you no doubt already know, an amps power output will change depending on frequency, which changes with resistance. Simply put: all 5 amps will be putting out a different amount of power, all at the same exact time. And that leads to 2 issues. First, an amps sound quality will vary depending on how hard its asked to work. At any given time, one amp may be straining and another may not be. So even though the amps are identical, they sound different.
The other issue if volume. Since everything is now isolated and separate, you have no way of controlling volume. Not overall volume, but volume for each speaker driver. There's no way to keep all the drivers at their proper volumes like they used to, before the mods. As you can imagine, having all 5 speaker drivers playing at different volumes relative to each other, leaves you with a big problem. You need to control volume for each different driver, and to do that you need to use an active xover. And that's where time and phase goes right out the window. All the different gain setting for each of the drivers will alter phase (assuming they're not already out from all the other stuff they did to the speaker.). So, it becomes a trade-of. They're not my speakers, so the owner can do whatever they wish to them. But I was attacked because I had a difference of opinion, and nothing more. What gets me is, why did Cheviot start a discussion for? He flips out when people have a different opinion than him. If you can't handle the varying opinions, it might be best to not get involved in the first place.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
Reading through it again, just to be sure, I don't feel the need to make any changes, because its all accurate. Its fairly basic stuff that you can get out of a book.
Also, just to be fair, he mentions some Linn speakers. As stated in my last post, I don't like Linn, so I'm not up on all of their models. But I wouldn't want to do to them, the same thing that others have done to me on this thread, so I looked up some info on the Akurate 242. Turns out I'm a lucky guesser. Linn recommends the use of their active xover for best results.
To Maybay:
I wonder why that would be? Active xovers? Well, if you read my post again, I explain it. And yes, I know you'll come up with more silly comments that are dumber than those butchered Thiels. You should at least take some pointers from Cheviot. He's way smarter than you. His picture swap idea was fantastic, even though it didn't work. I still respect the effort. Judging by your last post, you've got nothing for me.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-04-15: Cheviot
I would like to thank some of the members here for mantaining alive this discussion thread.
Anyway it's a weird thing that "Stef23", the owner of these loudspeakers, can't post here for a strange limitation that stops the newcomers of this site to give their opinion here. He can log in with his username but not post.
For this reason he has sent me the following message that I faithfully report. I have to say that I haven't had the pleasure to know him personally until one week ago at a very fancy restaurant:
--
Stef23:
Dear Audiogoners,
I've seen your comments about the modifications made to the Thiel CS5. Let me introduce myself to your community: my name is Stefano, I'm the owner of these loudspeakers.
I would like to make some observations: 1° I am a music lover and I think that the various components of a stereo system are just means to listen to music in the best way and, if possible in a sublime way; 2° I've purchased the CS5 considering them as an optimum product and the best that I could afford; 3° every thing built by a man is sooner or later improvable by someone else. After some years of listening to the standard version I felt the necessity to enhance their performances and, other then change them, I preferred to go with the modifications, with the kind of curiosity that in every field can lead to improvements, putting them on the line, risking my loudspeakers. I called Dissanayake, whose amplifiers I already owned (and I still have), because I considered him to be the man who could have pursued the project. The modifications must be considered still in progress because actually we have "only" extracted the crossovers, improved the cables of the woofer and subwoofers, divided the various ways allowing multi-wiring & multi-amplification. Improvements are perceptible in the soundstage re-creation and in a better tonal balance.
I stay tuned for any further clarification, admitting my ignorance in technical matters...I'm only a doctor.
Best regards to all of you
Stef23
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-05-15: Zd542
Cheviot,
Your last post is appreciated. Not many people would have posted such a letter. At least now, we can see a story that matches the pics.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-05-15: Fisick
I still cannot see a story that matches your presence here, among us.
Fisick (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-05-15: Zd542
"02-23-15: Fisick
02-16-15: Zd542 ...I was able to prove to him that the xovers were removed from the speakers...
You proved to be wrong in this thread, try elsewhere."
"The modifications must be considered still in progress because actually we have "only" extracted the crossovers,"
You must be using the alternate definition of proof.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-08-15: Cheviot
03-05-15: Fisick
I still cannot see a story that matches your presence here, among us.
Fisick
Well, at least now I can see it. As my previous post testifies, this isn't really a free space where everyone can express his or her ideas about an audio matter. I agree with the moderation of this site, that avoids many problems but censorship is another thing and I dislike it. Where's the benefit when you cut many possible positive comments and leave only four voices? The picture is incomplete, the discussion is boring.
Why they act in this way?
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-08-15: Cheviot
02-28-15: Fisick
Going a little deeply into what has been done I think there is nothing to be scandalized by.
Cheviot says that the goal was to free the project of the few commercial limitations it had, seeing picture n° 11, I have to say that the original one is a 1$ single-wiring connecting tap on a 9.200$ loudspeaker, not a very good thing. Those installed after the mods are 5 high quality taps with solid copper contacts on the back, see pictures n°41-43.
I don't see anything wrong in that.
The original internal cables, in picture n° 25-27, are identical for every driver and seem to be nothing special as for gauge and quality, probably a beefier cable like that used in the mods adds some little fine detail to the sound.
I was expecting to see also a better material for the original board on which the crossover is mounted. A particle board it's not a good thing for its variations in many electronic values when humidity and temperature change.
So, there is nothing completely absurd in these mods and maybe something more is still possible (changing e.g. the material of the crossover board). I really don't understand the blind hate of someone here that seems to have been punctured by a tarantula or some strange insect.
Fisick
Thank you Fisick for your comment.
As far as regards the crossover: enclosing it in external wood cases prevent it from receiving any interference from the drivers and helps also for the issues you refer to like humidity and variations of temperature. This time, moreover, any part failure or upgrade is easily possible.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-08-15: Zd542
"03-08-15: Cheviot
03-05-15: Fisick
I still cannot see a story that matches your presence here, among us.
Fisick
Well, at least now I can see it. As my previous post testifies, this isn't really a free space where everyone can express his or her ideas about an audio matter. I agree with the moderation of this site, that avoids many problems but censorship is another thing and I dislike it. Where's the benefit when you cut many possible positive comments and leave only four voices? The picture is incomplete, the discussion is boring.
Why they act in this way?"
You guys are bunch crybabies. The only thing you're good at is being wrong. This is not really a free site where you can express ideas on audio? I don't see where anyone was stopped from saying what they wanted to. You say you don't like censorship, yet you practice it. Remember the pictures you posted overnight so you could win the argument? The real issue here is that your feelings were hurt because some of us disagreed with you on the speakers. But I'll leave it at that because I can just imagine the tears building up in your eyes as you read this.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-06-15: Maybay
03-02-15: Zd542
...I guess it was you that destroyed the Thiels since you have so much invested into "winning" this argument...
Ah ha! :) Probably you are a well known youngster, for this I forgive you. I have to say that this isn't your personal blog where to unburden yourself to everyone. You are taking all this personally and are able only to offend and insult other members. I don't know how this is tolerated here. I will not do the same.
I am not the one who modified the CS5 and this isn't a lottery where to win something, your hate is clouding over your mind. I don't loose my time giving answers to someone who is having this behaviour here, was wrong since the beginning, and isn't even capable of quoting.
Maybay (Answers | This Thread)
03-09-15: Fisick
03-05-15 Zd542:
you must be using an alternate definition of proof
Needless. For those of you that don't want to read all the posts: this troll insisted that the crossovers weren't used anymore and he was wrong, no need to joke here. Then, to remark this, he used bad language against Cheviot that was removed by the Moderator, saying that an active crossover was used. This is the right sequence. Just read below:
02-14-15: Zd542
...In order to do as you say and modify the speaker in such away so it accepts multiple amps and is much easier to drive, you have to remove or bypass the passive crossover and use an active. There's no other way to do it. It has to be done that way.
Now, after the moderation, he feels safe enough to continue with his normal action of disturb.
Fisick (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-12-15: Zd542
When you're driving, have you ever noticed every so often you see some kid that took a perfectly good car and destroyed it for no reason at all? The ones where it looks like someone stepped on the car and the wheels are sticking out at odd angles, the engine sounds like a detuned lawn mower, 2 tone primer, etc... That's what happened to that poor Thiel speaker. What used to be, "One of the most complex crossover ever made", is replaced by something that is not.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-12-15: Rx8man
Zd, they're also dragging the ruined P.O.S. one inch off the pavement with a big fart muffler hanging down.
Then there's the over-sized "ghetto" wheels on beautiful muscle cars, makes me puke.
Crossovers on the other hand, you better know what the hell you're doing or stay out, measurements alone don't suffice.
Rx8man (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-12-15: Cheviot
@Zd542: I think you are on the wrong way, that crossover is not "replaced", it remains there but with the possibility to be driven by 2 or more amplifiers. The loudspeakers at the owner will can be connected as before the modification, so there is no destruction whatsoever...
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-12-15: Zd542
"02-12-15: Cheviot
@Zd542: I think you are on the wrong way, that crossover is not "replaced", it remains there but with the possibility to be driven by 2 or more amplifiers. The loudspeakers at the owner will can be connected as before the modification, so there is no destruction whatsoever..."
Just because they did the mods and the speaker still works, doesn't mean that there was no destruction done. Thiel is not a typical speaker. Before they started fooling with it, it was time and phase correct. Very few speakers can make that claim, its pretty rare. By doing those mods, they destroyed what made that speaker special. If you're not familiar with time and phase correct speakers, check out Thiels web site. Also look at Vandersteen and Green Mountain Audio. There are the only companies that I know of that are currently making speakers with this type of design.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-13-15: Cheviot
@Zd542: I confirm you are on the wrong way. Your motivations are weak and superficial. Don't think that the people that have made these mods are kids just playing with toys with any knowledge of the matter! Dissanayake (the owner of that website) is in the audio field since 1967 and certainly knows what he is doing! Have you visited his photogallery page?
@Zd542 & Rx8man: Moreover in Europe they don't modify cars to make them bumping or mount big wheels. There are some serious modders like Brabus and AMG for Mercedes, Gemballa for Porsche, Hennessey for Ferrari. Oh yes also Ferrari.
Everything is improvable even the best.
When you are dealing with semi-industrial processes you can bet that a total artisan one can better them, with the right move and the right project. This isn't a task for everyone, this requires courage and a good mind.
Time and phase caracteristics are not altered at all if you use two, three, or five identical amps. The difference is that this time you can use less power.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-13-15: Zd542
"02-13-15: Cheviot
@Zd542: I confirm you are on the wrong way. Your motivations are weak and superficial. Don't think that the people that have made these mods are kids just playing with toys with any knowledge of the matter! Dissanayake (the owner of that website) is in the audio field since 1967 and certainly knows what he is doing! Have you visited his photogallery page?"
He has pictures? I take it all back!! He definitely knows what he is doing if he has pictures, my mistake.
"Time and phase caracteristics are not altered at all if you use two, three, or five identical amps. The difference is that this time you can use less power."
I would explain why that's not true, but it would be a waste of time because I don't have pictures to back it all up.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-13-15: Maybay
So, if I get the picture, the crossover isn't altered but only divided?
Maybay (Answers | This Thread)
02-13-15: Cheviot
@Zd542: I appreciate your acute humor but everyone of that pictures is an absolute masterpiece hand made, the Italian audio-magazine Suono and Videohifi.com web-magazine have my identical opinion.
I would explain why that's not true, but it would be a waste of time because I don't have pictures to back it all up.
You would explain why that's not true but you can't, because you haven't any argument to prove that.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-13-15: Rcprince
The "whrrring" sound you hear when you go to the link is the sound of poor Jim Thiel spinning in his grave.
I guess one question I have is why would anyone want to buy 2 to 5 separate amplifiers, and associated interconnects and speaker cables, rather than one well-designed amplifier with the necessary power to handle the speakers.
Rcprince (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-13-15: Zd542
"You would explain why that's not true but you can't, because you haven't any argument to prove that.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
I don't need to argue anything. The guy removed the old crossovers and binding post panels from the speakers and ran new speaker wires from the drivers to the new binding post plate he made. So, now the speakers are back together but they're missing something. Crossovers. There's no crossovers in the speakers. Since its probably not a good idea to have the amps power each individual driver directly with no crossover in between, he now needs to use an external active crossover. In doing so, he won't be able to keep the speakers time and phase correct. Like I said before, he took a good speaker and made crap out of it.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Cheviot
02-13-15: Maybay
So, if I get the picture, the crossover isn't altered but only divided?
Exactly. I am sorry that someone here has misunderstood the mods done, and I really don't like to go on with any verbal clash.
Those mods aren't just like throwing away the cross and running cables directly from the drivers (this would have been stupid), but something much more complex: like respect the original circuit and find the exact points where divide it into 5 filters. I repeat: the crossover remains in its place!
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Imhififan
A Thiel akubarik passive?
Imhififan (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Fisick
Rcprince:
...
I guess one question I have is why would anyone want to buy 2 to 5 separate amplifiers, and associated interconnects and speaker cables, rather than one well-designed amplifier with the necessary power to handle the speakers.
I think this is to use less power per amp. When you connect 5 or 6 drivers to a complex crossover like that, the power drain could be huge and hard to handle for a single amp. In the difficult musical passages it's easy for one amp to run out of power.
Fisick (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Zd542
"Exactly. I am sorry that someone here has misunderstood the mods done, and I really don't like to go on with any verbal clash.
Those mods aren't just like throwing away the cross and running cables directly from the drivers (this would have been stupid), but something much more complex: like respect the original circuit and find the exact points where divide it into 5 filters. I repeat: the crossover remains in its place!
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
The only person that misunderstood anything here is you. Go to the pictures that you referenced. Chose the sort function that goes from oldest to newest, and follow the pictures in order. You'll see that upon completion, the speaker is put back together and the old crossovers are not in the speakers. The only thing this guy did was remove the stock crossover and the internal speaker wires. He then ran new speaker wires to a plate he made with 5 sets of binding posts. There are no crossovers in those speakers. You claim that he did this so it would take less power to drive the speakers. You're correct at least in that. But the only way to do this is to bypass the passive crossovers and go with an active. I told you in my other post that it would be a waste of time in explaining this to you. This is the 2nd time I'm doing so. The only person who's guessing at anything here is you. Can you show me where I'm wrong?
"Those mods aren't just like throwing away the cross and running cables directly from the drivers (this would have been stupid)"
I at least agree with that.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Cheviot
Call the doctors, call the doctors! This is my last message to Zd542:
Why, if as you say there are no crossovers in the speakers: in picture 16 is the guy pointing some place in the cross? And why in picture 17-18 the circuit layout is carefully retrieved from the board? And in pictures 21-22-23-24 (at the end of the set) the same guy is designing on paper the schematic, to throw then it away? It makes no sense. As it makes no sense to buy a 9.200$ loudspeakers pair (in EU much more) and destroy a crucial part of them.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Zd542
"Why, if as you say there are no crossovers in the speakers: in picture 16 is the guy pointing some place in the cross?"
Don't know. Ask the guy.
"And why in picture 17-18 the circuit layout is carefully retrieved from the board? And in pictures 21-22-23-24 (at the end of the set) the same guy is designing on paper the schematic, to throw then it away?"
I would suspect he would need that info for the new crossover. But its just a picture and you would have to ask him that.
"02-14-15: Cheviot
Call the doctors, call the doctors! This is my last message to Zd542:
It makes no sense. As it makes no sense to buy a 9.200$ loudspeakers pair (in EU much more) and destroy a crucial part of them.
You would explain why that's not true but you can't, because you haven't any argument to prove that."
Going by your pictures, it clearly shows the crossovers out of the speakers after they are already finished. Just look at the position of the new wires that he runs down the inside of the cabinet and the position of the new binding post plate he makes. Its in the wrong spot. Its up much higher up then where they need to be. But don't take my word for it, look at the pictures.
Here's a picture of the back of the speaker before the crossover comes out.
tinypic.com#.VN-jHV2Cgr4
See the crossover. Its kind of hard to miss. Now look at this picture.
tinypic.com#.VN-jjl2Cgr4
This is the speaker on its way back together. See all the brand new white insulation he stuffs in the crossover USED to be.
The funny part here is all this proof that you asked for, and I'm giving isn't even necessary. In order to do as you say and modify the speaker in such away so it accepts multiple amps and is much easier to drive, you have to remove or bypass the passive crossover and use an active. There's no other way to do it. It has to be done that way.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Cheviot
"Aaaaaaaaaaauuuaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaauhaaaaaaaa"
Don't worry,
it's the siren, I've called 911.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-14-15: Zd542
"02-14-15: Cheviot
"Aaaaaaaaaaauuuaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaauhaaaaaaaa"
Don't worry,
it's the siren, I've called 911.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
You'll have to do better than that, I get them every day. What's the matter? You don't want to talk about the speakers any more? lol. Smart move.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-15-15: Cheviot
As anyone can see in pictures 47-48-49-50 the crossovers are there, playing with the loudspeakers, as I told you in the first post.
I hope this helps for all!
I would be pleased if the owner of this system would like to add something to the discussion.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-15-15: Zd542
You're good. I'll give you that much. I didn't see that one coming. You win, and well played.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-16-15: Swampwalker
So the purpose of that exercise was to take the crossover out of the cabinet...to make it a CS 5 with outboard crossover?
Swampwalker (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-16-15: Cheviot
@Swampwalker: the real purpose if this complex operation that has taken 1 week of hard work, a lot of courage and expertise was to use multiple single ended class A tube amps on the different ways. The outboard crossover with the new high quality cables and the air base suspension of the loudspeakers added a lot of fine details to the sound presentation of the CS5, so that Jim Thiel would have been proud of.
You have to consider the enormous current backwave that 6 drivers like those of the CS5 send back to the amp to understand this modification. A very high dumping factor of a single amp, in this case, can be insufficient to obtain the best performance of the loudspeaker system.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-15-15: Imhififan
Please refer to www.stereophile
a passive 5way crossover that allow the user to biwire, triwire, quadwire, or quintwire. One could power a single Akurate 242 with up to five mono amplifiers, if desired; for presumably even greater performance....
Imhififan (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-15-15: Shakeydeal
"It makes no sense. As it makes no sense to buy a 9.200$ loudspeakers pair (in EU much more) and destroy a crucial part of them."
Bingo! You finally get it. It makes no sense to buy an expensive speaker then modify the hell out of it so that it isn't even what you bought in the first place anymore. Sill actually.
Shakey
Shakeydeal (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-16-15: Cheviot
@Shakeydeal: see my previous reply to Swampwalker, the phrase you quote refers like a proof ab absurdo to the crossovers that, as a matter of fact, aren't touched.
But that is not my opinion about the upgrade. I think they still are Thiels CS5 with so much more to reveal!
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-16-15: Zd542
"Bingo! You finally get it. It makes no sense to buy an expensive speaker then modify the hell out of it so that it isn't even what you bought in the first place anymore. Sill actually.
Shakey"
Don't waste your time. We've been trying to tell him this for days. He's either the butcher himself, or knows him, and is taking all of this very personally. He challenged me to come up with a reasonable argument as to why the speakers are no longer time and phase correct, and I was able to do so. Conclusively. Using the pictures he referenced, I was able to prove to him that the xovers were removed from the speaker, as they would have to be if you wanted to access driver individually, and would need to use an active xover for it all to work properly and get the efficiency you would need to make it an easier load for the amps. So his response was to get new pictures posted over night so he could have new ammo to fuel his argument. I have to give him credit. Didn't see that one coming.
Cheviot,
No doubt you read the above and are now flipping out. I know, its crazy. I'll do anything to win the argument. That's what you'll say. I told you before that I didn't need to argue anything, and I still don't. We both know you somehow got those new pics posted. We could just leave it at that. And to be honest, I do have a certain amount of respect just for your will not to give up. Its creative and caught me completely off guard. Or, you could issue another challenge, and ask me to prove it. We can do it that way too. I'll prove you wrong one and make you look like a fool one more time.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-17-15: Cheviot
Imhififan
Please refer to www.stereophile
a passive 5way crossover that allow the user to biwire, triwire, quadwire, or quintwire. One could power a single Akurate 242 with up to five mono amplifiers, if desired; for presumably even greater performance....
Yes, if I remember well that is an option that Linn has offered since the Isobarik model came out. In 1989 I listened to Isobarik with three LK280 power amps, each driving one way of the two channels: very detailed and full-bodied sound!
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-17-15: Cheviot
02-14-15: Fisick
I think this is to use less power per amp. When you connect 5 or 6 drivers to a complex crossover like that, the power drain could be huge and hard to handle for a single amp. In the difficult musical passages it's easy for one amp to run out of power.
Precisely, taking control of a big loudspeaker it's not an easy task for a single power amp; reaching the best performances that a loudspeaker system can achieve, it's another step that could require to free the project of its (few, as in this case) commercial limitations.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-17-15: Rcprince
If I'm not mistaken, the Linn system basically put the crossover slopes into the amplifiers themselves (at least that's how they did it in their "Aktiv" systems), thereby limiting the amps' bandwidths. So you have the benefit of an outboard active crossover to replace the passive crossover in the speaker. I heard that demonstrated, and it did seem to sound better than running one amp through the passive crossover network, but the fact is that you still needed the active crossovers in the amps for it to work. Don't know what the system you listened to in 1989 was, but my experience was in the 90s.
Rcprince (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-17-15: Cheviot
@Rcprince: the system I listened to was with three stereo power amps driving the internal passive crossovers of the speakers, that since that time, offered this intelligent option. Nowadays I think that with Linn products you can choose to use passive or active crossovers (these one, as you say, contained in the amps). Anyway I think, like Jim Thiel did, that a good well engineered passive filter is the preferable option.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-23-15: Fisick
02-16-15: Zd542 ...I was able to prove to him that the xovers were removed from the speakers...
You proved to be wrong in this thread, try elsewhere.
Fisick (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-23-15: Maybay
Zd542: ...Or, you could issue another challenge, and ask me to prove it. We can do it that way too. I'll prove you wrong one and make you look like a fool one more time.
Cheviot has demonstrated that the crossovers remained there as part of the loudspeakers and you were wrong. He said that they were extracted from the speakers since the opening post. Moreover the caption on Dissanayake's site clearly states: "Thiel CS5 modifications by Dissanayake, to obtain a five ways multiwiring crossover panel, in four steps!", haven't you seen that? The only fool here seems to be you.
Maybay (Answers | This Thread)
02-23-15: Zd542
"The only fool here seems to be you."
Maybe. It certainly wouldn't be the first time someone has called me a fool.
If you read the posts, its clear that Cheviot is a fan of the mods, but really doesn't know exactly what was done. So as he is arguing the points that he assures us to be true, things keep changing.
"@Zd542: I think you are on the wrong way, that crossover is not "replaced", it remains there but with the possibility to be driven by 2 or more amplifiers."
"@Zd542: I confirm you are on the wrong way. Your motivations are weak and superficial. Don't think that the people that have made these mods are kids just playing with toys with any knowledge of the matter! Dissanayake (the owner of that website) is in the audio field since 1967 and certainly knows what he is doing! Have you visited his photogallery page?"
"@Zd542: I appreciate your acute humor but everyone of that pictures is an absolute masterpiece hand made, the Italian audio-magazine Suono and Videohifi.com web-magazine have my identical opinion."
"Those mods aren't just like throwing away the cross and running cables directly from the drivers (this would have been stupid), but something much more complex: like respect the original circuit and find the exact points where divide it into 5 filters. I repeat: the crossover remains in its place!"
He was right about making a connection plate with connections for the individual drivers. But no one was arguing that point. It really was clear from the pics. "I repeat: the crossover remains in its place!". Really. Looking at the pics, I already proved that wasn't the case. They were removed and some type of cotton or insulation was stuffed it where the xover used to be.
So far, this is all great, but every one keeps bringing up the pics, so its only fair to take a closer look at them.
"Why, if as you say there are no crossovers in the speakers: in picture 16 is the guy pointing some place in the cross? And why in picture 17-18 the circuit layout is carefully retrieved from the board? And in pictures 21-22-23-24 (at the end of the set) the same guy is designing on paper the schematic, to throw then it away?"
If you have to reference pics to support your case, those would be the ones. But just because they are the best pics to reference, they by no means make his case. You can just reread my post for the details as to why this is so. And at this point, thats it. The only thing we can conclude was that the xovers were removed and some type of mods were done to the speakers.
Then something interesting happens. I wake up Sunday morning and checked my emails and posts, etc... and I happen to see this post.
"02-15-15: Cheviot
As anyone can see in pictures 47-48-49-50 the crossovers are there, playing with the loudspeakers, as I told you in the first post. I hope this helps for all! I would be pleased if the owner of this system would like to add something to the discussion."
Well, he's at least partially right. Pics 47-48-49-50 are clearly the ones I would use if I was Cheviot trying to make his case. What I find interesting about these pics, is that they were posted overnight. Almost like they were put there so someone can win an argument. No one in their right mind would reference pics 17,18,21,22,23 and 24 if pics 47,48,49, and 50 were there. So now you are going to say that I'm grasping at straws and that I'll say anything I can to win the argument and not look stupid. Maybe. But I already made the case that I don't have to argue anything. Digital pictures are like digital music files in that they both use tags that hold meta data. You can tell your web browser to show picture tags. The dates that pics 47,48,49 and 50 showed on their tags was that they were added just several hours before. Overnight. Literally.
Now why would that be? The only reason that I can think of, is so someone can win an argument. Adding new pics overnight. lol. Well, since we have new pics, lets have a look at them as well. The 2 best pics, 48 and 49, leave me with some questions. The pics don't really show how anything is connected. Not clearly anyway. The only thing that stands out, is that the xover looks like it was just thrown over a bunch of speaker cables. They don't clearly show any wires connected to the xover at one end and the speaker at the other end. Its just a bunch of wires running under the speakers to where ever. I mean, if it were my masterpiece of engineering, I'd have a little pride in how I ran all those cables. Not only that, I thought the whole project was done in order to use multiple amps. The pics only show 1 set of speaker cables that look like they go to some type of amp (the thick ones at the bottom with red and blue ends). Where's the rest of the cables that you will need for more than 1 amp? No need to do all that work for just 1 pair of cables and 1 amp.
So, back to the original question.
"The only fool here seems to be you."
I guess it depends on what you consider a fool to be. I'm not the one who butchered a perfectly good pair of expensive speakers, and make up a bunch of lies in an effort to cover up what can only be considered, at best, an abortion. Maybe you can post more pics and get it right this time. Make shure you don't mess the tags up again.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-26-15: Unsound
In that Jim Thiel made adjustments in his cross-over to accommodate for fractions of and inch in time alignment, I just hope the modifier has access to equipment (anechoic chamber?) for measurements like square wave response, step response, etc., before considering such an endeavor. Unless I could get an extended audition I wouldn't touch these modified speakers with a 10' pole. Seems like an experiment that could easily come to be a very costly mistake. I can just imagine Jim turning in his grave.
Unsound (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-27-15: Cheviot
All of you should just imagine, or know that, when you sleep, you keep turning in your bed sometimes to find a better position to lay quietly. I think it's the same condition.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-27-15: Zd542
"Unless I could get an extended audition I wouldn't touch these modified speakers with a 10' pole."
What about if they modified the pole by chopping it up into little pieces and then glued it back together, so that it's now an audiophile pole to match the speakers?
"02-27-15: Cheviot
All of you should just imagine, or know that, when you sleep, you keep turning in your bed sometimes to find a better position to lay quietly. I think it's the same condition.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
Agreed. But just imagine if I had those poor butchered Thiels. I wouldn't be able to get any sleep.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-28-15: Unsound
Ha!
Open a thread on a forum and then suggest others "...lay quietly."
Perhaps you're not aware of what Thiel had previously said on this very subject?
Unsound (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-28-15: Cheviot
@Unsound: It was only a joke Unsound, you said Jim is turning in its grave, I don't think so, I said if he is turning it's only to find a better position.
There's no need of anechoic chambers or measurements you name, if you respect the original path of the circuit, like in this case! It's the third time I say this, if you don't accept that, it's not a problem of mine.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-28-15: Zd542
Cheviot,
I'm just curious and I'd like to ask a question. If you choose not to answer it, I'll understand. Assuming that you have no direct involvement with the person who modified the Thiels (By the looks of it, from reading their posts, its probably Maybay or Fisick), why are you still so loyal and willing to believe these people after they went and added those extra pics to the web site, just to win an argument? It doesn't make any sense. If you take a step back and try to look at the situation objectively, there's more holes in their story than they drilled into the speakers.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-28-15: Zd542
"There's no need of anechoic chambers or measurements you name, if you respect the original path of the circuit, like in this case! It's the third time I say this, if you don't accept that, it's not a problem of mine.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
Sorry, but I forgot to put this comment in my last post. The above statement is not true. The speaker is no longer time and phase correct. You don't have to take my word for it. Just look up the requirements for making a speaker and you can see for yourself.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-28-15: Fisick
Going a little deeply into what has been done I think there is nothing to be scandalized by.
Cheviot says that the goal was to free the project of the few commercial limitations it had, seeing picture n° 11, I have to say that the original one is a 1$ single-wiring connecting tap on a 9.200$ loudspeaker, not a very good thing. Those installed after the mods are 5 high quality taps with solid copper contacts on the back, see pictures n°41-43.
I don't see anything wrong in that.
The original internal cables, in picture n° 25-27, are identical for every driver and seem to be nothing special as for gauge and quality, probably a beefier cable like that used in the mods adds some little fine detail to the sound.
I was expecting to see also a better material for the original board on which the crossover is mounted. A particle board it's not a good thing for its variations in many electronic values when humidity and temperature change.
So, there is nothing completely absurd in these mods and maybe something more is still possible (changing e.g. the material of the crossover board). I really don't understand the blind hate of someone here that seems to have been punctured by a tarantula or some strange insect.
Fisick (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-02-15: Zd542
At first glance, I can see how you would say that there is nothing absurd about these mods. But when you look at the design, its clear that the speaker is no longer time and phase correct. Why is that important? Because its the most important feature of Thiel speakers. That's what makes them special.
"Time and phase caracteristics are not altered at all if you use two, three, or five identical amps. The difference is that this time you can use less power.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
He's wrong about that. If you connect 2 or more amps that are exactly the same, to the speaker after the mods, they're not exactly the same. He thinks they are, but they're not. The problem you run into using multiple amps where each amp connects to a different point on the xover and speakers, is that every thing is now isolated. So if you use 5 amps, like this, you in effect have 5 little audio systems, all working independent of each other. As you no doubt already know, an amps power output will change depending on frequency, which changes with resistance. Simply put: all 5 amps will be putting out a different amount of power, all at the same exact time. And that leads to 2 issues. First, an amps sound quality will vary depending on how hard its asked to work. At any given time, one amp may be straining and another may not be. So even though the amps are identical, they sound different.
The other issue if volume. Since everything is now isolated and separate, you have no way of controlling volume. Not overall volume, but volume for each speaker driver. There's no way to keep all the drivers at their proper volumes like they used to, before the mods. As you can imagine, having all 5 speaker drivers playing at different volumes relative to each other, leaves you with a big problem. You need to control volume for each different driver, and to do that you need to use an active xover. And that's where time and phase goes right out the window. All the different gain setting for each of the drivers will alter phase (assuming they're not already out from all the other stuff they did to the speaker.). So, it becomes a trade-of. They're not my speakers, so the owner can do whatever they wish to them. But I was attacked because I had a difference of opinion, and nothing more. What gets me is, why did Cheviot start a discussion for? He flips out when people have a different opinion than him. If you can't handle the varying opinions, it might be best to not get involved in the first place.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-02-15: Maybay
02-27-15: Zd542
...What about if they modified the pole by chopping it...
The only thing chopped here have been your bad language against Cheviot in your post of the 02-14-15 by the Moderator of this thread. You are ridiculous. I can understand why he doesn't want to answer you. Please, stop trolling here.
03-02-15: Zd542 ...If you connect 2 or more amps that are exactly the same, to the speaker after the mods, they're not exactly the same. He thinks they are, but they're not...
Reading what you say it's even worst: so you are writing a new audio bible here and projects like the Linn Isobarik and Akurate 242 named before and countless many others that encourage multi-amplification are crap for you? Time and phase characterisics of that loudspeaker have nothing to deal with what you refer to as volume or other silly things (active crossovers? Here there aren't, gain settings? Drivers have no gain). You have so much confusion in your head.
It seems here that Zd is having a nightmare since two weeks now: he dreams Cheviot "overnight" like a butcher, but it's only a bad dream for him. :) :)
Maybay (Answers | This Thread)
03-02-15: Zd542
"Time and phase characterisics of that loudspeaker have nothing to deal with what you refer to as volume or other silly things (active crossovers? Here there aren't, gain settings? Drivers have no gain). You have so much confusion in your head."
Clueless idiot. I guess it was you that destroyed the Thiels since you have so much invested into "winning" this argument. Now you're comparing this ridiculous hack job to Linn? lol. The funny thing is, you're right. Start off with a nice pair of Thiels and end up with a pair of Linn. Linn speakers sound so bad, they Kan't even spell them right. Well done. Keep up the good work. Can't wait to see what you'll akomplish next.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-02-15: Zd542
To anyone other than Maybay that may be following this, he selected a piece of what I said that may be confusing.
" 03-02-15: Zd542 ...If you connect 2 or more amps that are exactly the same, to the speaker after the mods, they're not exactly the same. He thinks they are, but they're not..."
Its one of those statements where if you take it out of context, like he does, it may not be clear. Here's a copy of whole statement, not just a piece selected just to argue.
"He's wrong about that. If you connect 2 or more amps that are exactly the same, to the speaker after the mods, they're not exactly the same. He thinks they are, but they're not. The problem you run into using multiple amps where each amp connects to a different point on the xover and speakers, is that every thing is now isolated. So if you use 5 amps, like this, you in effect have 5 little audio systems, all working independent of each other. As you no doubt already know, an amps power output will change depending on frequency, which changes with resistance. Simply put: all 5 amps will be putting out a different amount of power, all at the same exact time. And that leads to 2 issues. First, an amps sound quality will vary depending on how hard its asked to work. At any given time, one amp may be straining and another may not be. So even though the amps are identical, they sound different.
The other issue if volume. Since everything is now isolated and separate, you have no way of controlling volume. Not overall volume, but volume for each speaker driver. There's no way to keep all the drivers at their proper volumes like they used to, before the mods. As you can imagine, having all 5 speaker drivers playing at different volumes relative to each other, leaves you with a big problem. You need to control volume for each different driver, and to do that you need to use an active xover. And that's where time and phase goes right out the window. All the different gain setting for each of the drivers will alter phase (assuming they're not already out from all the other stuff they did to the speaker.). So, it becomes a trade-of. They're not my speakers, so the owner can do whatever they wish to them. But I was attacked because I had a difference of opinion, and nothing more. What gets me is, why did Cheviot start a discussion for? He flips out when people have a different opinion than him. If you can't handle the varying opinions, it might be best to not get involved in the first place.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
Reading through it again, just to be sure, I don't feel the need to make any changes, because its all accurate. Its fairly basic stuff that you can get out of a book.
Also, just to be fair, he mentions some Linn speakers. As stated in my last post, I don't like Linn, so I'm not up on all of their models. But I wouldn't want to do to them, the same thing that others have done to me on this thread, so I looked up some info on the Akurate 242. Turns out I'm a lucky guesser. Linn recommends the use of their active xover for best results.
To Maybay:
I wonder why that would be? Active xovers? Well, if you read my post again, I explain it. And yes, I know you'll come up with more silly comments that are dumber than those butchered Thiels. You should at least take some pointers from Cheviot. He's way smarter than you. His picture swap idea was fantastic, even though it didn't work. I still respect the effort. Judging by your last post, you've got nothing for me.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-04-15: Cheviot
I would like to thank some of the members here for mantaining alive this discussion thread.
Anyway it's a weird thing that "Stef23", the owner of these loudspeakers, can't post here for a strange limitation that stops the newcomers of this site to give their opinion here. He can log in with his username but not post.
For this reason he has sent me the following message that I faithfully report. I have to say that I haven't had the pleasure to know him personally until one week ago at a very fancy restaurant:
--
Stef23:
Dear Audiogoners,
I've seen your comments about the modifications made to the Thiel CS5. Let me introduce myself to your community: my name is Stefano, I'm the owner of these loudspeakers.
I would like to make some observations: 1° I am a music lover and I think that the various components of a stereo system are just means to listen to music in the best way and, if possible in a sublime way; 2° I've purchased the CS5 considering them as an optimum product and the best that I could afford; 3° every thing built by a man is sooner or later improvable by someone else. After some years of listening to the standard version I felt the necessity to enhance their performances and, other then change them, I preferred to go with the modifications, with the kind of curiosity that in every field can lead to improvements, putting them on the line, risking my loudspeakers. I called Dissanayake, whose amplifiers I already owned (and I still have), because I considered him to be the man who could have pursued the project. The modifications must be considered still in progress because actually we have "only" extracted the crossovers, improved the cables of the woofer and subwoofers, divided the various ways allowing multi-wiring & multi-amplification. Improvements are perceptible in the soundstage re-creation and in a better tonal balance.
I stay tuned for any further clarification, admitting my ignorance in technical matters...I'm only a doctor.
Best regards to all of you
Stef23
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-05-15: Zd542
Cheviot,
Your last post is appreciated. Not many people would have posted such a letter. At least now, we can see a story that matches the pics.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-05-15: Fisick
I still cannot see a story that matches your presence here, among us.
Fisick (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-05-15: Zd542
"02-23-15: Fisick
02-16-15: Zd542 ...I was able to prove to him that the xovers were removed from the speakers...
You proved to be wrong in this thread, try elsewhere."
"The modifications must be considered still in progress because actually we have "only" extracted the crossovers,"
You must be using the alternate definition of proof.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-08-15: Cheviot
03-05-15: Fisick
I still cannot see a story that matches your presence here, among us.
Fisick
Well, at least now I can see it. As my previous post testifies, this isn't really a free space where everyone can express his or her ideas about an audio matter. I agree with the moderation of this site, that avoids many problems but censorship is another thing and I dislike it. Where's the benefit when you cut many possible positive comments and leave only four voices? The picture is incomplete, the discussion is boring.
Why they act in this way?
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-08-15: Cheviot
02-28-15: Fisick
Going a little deeply into what has been done I think there is nothing to be scandalized by.
Cheviot says that the goal was to free the project of the few commercial limitations it had, seeing picture n° 11, I have to say that the original one is a 1$ single-wiring connecting tap on a 9.200$ loudspeaker, not a very good thing. Those installed after the mods are 5 high quality taps with solid copper contacts on the back, see pictures n°41-43.
I don't see anything wrong in that.
The original internal cables, in picture n° 25-27, are identical for every driver and seem to be nothing special as for gauge and quality, probably a beefier cable like that used in the mods adds some little fine detail to the sound.
I was expecting to see also a better material for the original board on which the crossover is mounted. A particle board it's not a good thing for its variations in many electronic values when humidity and temperature change.
So, there is nothing completely absurd in these mods and maybe something more is still possible (changing e.g. the material of the crossover board). I really don't understand the blind hate of someone here that seems to have been punctured by a tarantula or some strange insect.
Fisick
Thank you Fisick for your comment.
As far as regards the crossover: enclosing it in external wood cases prevent it from receiving any interference from the drivers and helps also for the issues you refer to like humidity and variations of temperature. This time, moreover, any part failure or upgrade is easily possible.
Cheviot (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-08-15: Zd542
"03-08-15: Cheviot
03-05-15: Fisick
I still cannot see a story that matches your presence here, among us.
Fisick
Well, at least now I can see it. As my previous post testifies, this isn't really a free space where everyone can express his or her ideas about an audio matter. I agree with the moderation of this site, that avoids many problems but censorship is another thing and I dislike it. Where's the benefit when you cut many possible positive comments and leave only four voices? The picture is incomplete, the discussion is boring.
Why they act in this way?"
You guys are bunch crybabies. The only thing you're good at is being wrong. This is not really a free site where you can express ideas on audio? I don't see where anyone was stopped from saying what they wanted to. You say you don't like censorship, yet you practice it. Remember the pictures you posted overnight so you could win the argument? The real issue here is that your feelings were hurt because some of us disagreed with you on the speakers. But I'll leave it at that because I can just imagine the tears building up in your eyes as you read this.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
03-06-15: Maybay
03-02-15: Zd542
...I guess it was you that destroyed the Thiels since you have so much invested into "winning" this argument...
Ah ha! :) Probably you are a well known youngster, for this I forgive you. I have to say that this isn't your personal blog where to unburden yourself to everyone. You are taking all this personally and are able only to offend and insult other members. I don't know how this is tolerated here. I will not do the same.
I am not the one who modified the CS5 and this isn't a lottery where to win something, your hate is clouding over your mind. I don't loose my time giving answers to someone who is having this behaviour here, was wrong since the beginning, and isn't even capable of quoting.
Maybay (Answers | This Thread)
03-09-15: Fisick
03-05-15 Zd542:
you must be using an alternate definition of proof
Needless. For those of you that don't want to read all the posts: this troll insisted that the crossovers weren't used anymore and he was wrong, no need to joke here. Then, to remark this, he used bad language against Cheviot that was removed by the Moderator, saying that an active crossover was used. This is the right sequence. Just read below:
02-14-15: Zd542
...In order to do as you say and modify the speaker in such away so it accepts multiple amps and is much easier to drive, you have to remove or bypass the passive crossover and use an active. There's no other way to do it. It has to be done that way.
Now, after the moderation, he feels safe enough to continue with his normal action of disturb.
Fisick (Threads | Answers | This Thread)