Discuss The Viv Lab Rigid Arm

Dear Raul, I often have a problem to figure out in what way you are questioning my opinions or abilities, because of the language barrier.  In this case, it seems you are saying that I am incapable of discerning what are to you and some others obvious issues with the Viv Float tonearm, because I don't have a "test proved process" to use as a basis for comparison.  Based on your past statements, going all the way back to the MM thread, I gather that you worked very hard to develop ways to test new equipment or program material by training yourself as a listener.  To my knowledge, you don't actually use test instruments to collect data, and you don't do a formal analysis of yours or anyone else's data to draw conclusions.  In the end, you rely upon your trained ears.  Perhaps you are exposed to quantitative analysis in some cases through your association with Jose'.  If so, I don't recall your ever bringing such information to Audiogon Forums.  All that said, and even assuming you are a better "listener" than I am, you have no experience with any underhung tonearm, so far as I know.  I have made the empirical observation that the Viv Float tonearm (and the RS-A1) sounds "good", better than one might ever expect based on theory as we have come to know modern tonearm theory.  And in some respects, the Viv is revealing in ways that other tonearms do not often achieve.  I have made no claim that the Viv is "the best" tonearm or that it is even "better" than good pivoted tonearms with overhang.  My 45 years of experience as a bench scientist tell me that when one gets a surprising result in an experiment, it is time to pay attention to those surprising data, because understanding what happened can sometimes lead to important alteration of one's belief system.  Here I am merely trying to understand why the Viv sounds so good with a variety of cartridges.  Since you have never heard it, you have no status in this discussion.  We all know in what ways  it defies convention.  That does not explain its goodness.  Meantime, you are welcome to read the discussion here, such as it is, but your criticism of my qualifications adds nothing.  At least I own and listen to the tonearm you so dislike, probably without ever having seen one in the flesh.

As to your inference that I cannot be a MUSIC lover, that's insulting.  So I see that you took your usual tack at the end of your post which is to suggest that my shortcomings are not my fault; they are merely due to a defecive "process".  Anyway, I posit that anyone who listens to music every day or plays an instrument, and who attends live concerts, and who says he or she is a music lover, IS a music lover. Most music lovers stay away from this Forum for good reason.

Dear @lewm : I never said you are not a MUSIC lover and if you understand that was only a bad explanation for my part but was not my attitude because I know for sire that as me you are first than all a MUSIC lover. Apologize for that.

Now, every one has a " test proccess " my developed test proccess is not listening to the " forest " because as a whole we just are " lost " very easy, what I’m looking in that " forest " ( example ) is one specific " tree " in one or more of the LP tracks used in the test proccess where I know that " tree " better as the fingers of my hand. I have different trees depending what I want to test/to look for. I’m not looking for what is sounds in any LP very good because this is the " forest " and we can easy lost in there.

You can talk with F.Crowder who not only has a top top room/system but from some years now is a professional reviewer, I was at his place twice and from the first time ( with the Essential 3150 ) I ask him for 2-3 LPs and fortunatelly he owned and after that and even the high quality system I gave him an opinion of some anomaly that I listen on that system and that he till that moment did not take in count to fix it.

Same happens at A.Porter place ( 3150 too ) where with one of my LP tracks not one but twice detected some anomalies in his top room/system, first listening he and me and the second time with other 6 audiophiles including a Dagogo reviewer and in that session I was the only that detect a deficient SPL in one system channel

I can give you a lot more examples with gentlemans of that caliber and in all cases were my first listening session with that room/system that before were unknow for me. Other places that I remember because I meet fabolous gentlemans was in San Diego as Idaho too and Georgi and if they are still Agoners could attest what I’m posting here.

Now, detected I those anomalies because I’m a golden ears audiophile? NO far away from there, I detected because I know exactly what to look for I was looking for that tree and not the " forest " at random and  that’s all.

My first hand experiences for overall 20 years developing my test proccess ( many times thise LP tracks appeared at random and from there I choosed. ) makes me to learn a lot and makes me to fix that test " tree " strategy because is more easy to look for a tiny/small specific part that look at random in the forest for that unknow tree.

Btw, I posted 4-5 times in the forum that I owned the RS A-1 and perhaps I was one of the first Agoners to do it. I owned around 3 months and sold.

More or less that’s what I do. Can I ask which is your test whole proccess or any one of Agoners in this thread ? We all must be always willing to learn from every member even that I know that I don’t like almost no body here and obviously no bo dy in wbf and other forums. Even that what I post is always trying to help in some way even if what the gentlemans read could teeel for them I’m " insulting " them, this is never my attitude but help.

R.

Yes, I now recall that you did mention somewhere in the past that you owned an RS-A1.  I've never sold mine, but I don't use it for reasons stated. However, it too sounds better than it should given its shortcomings when you compare it to conventional tonearms.

My test process is based on more than 40 years of listening to a wide variety of turntables (5 TTs up and running), tonearms, and cartridges, and on recent years of being able to listen to any of several turntables, each with a different tonearm and cartridge, using one of two different audio systems.  This enables me to make rapid transitions (I can move a cartridge between turntables or between two tonearms or between two completely different systems, for example, in minutes, in order to evaluate that cartridge in isolation. The same can be done with other elements of the chain.)  But such evaluation is always limited in the sense that it is always subjective. I do own and use oscilloscopes (Techtronix, Sencore), audio frequency generators (HP), meters of all kinds, and a laboratory microscope, which I most often use for diagnostic and repair purposes. I also have trained as a vocalist and even performed several times, back 10 years ago or so. We attend live music performances at least once a month and more usually 2-3 times per month in the DC area, where there are a plethora of great performers.  I am also a member/donor to the Kennedy Center, and we attend often.

This is all a useless argument between us.  I say the Viv Float sounds very good and has some characteristics that are near to uniquely good among tonearms I have heard.  I am interested in why it sounds good.  And in the process, I have come to doubt certain gospels of modern pivoted tonearm design and the origins of these "gospel truths".  In contrast, you say the Viv simply cannot be good.  Let's agree to disagree without disparaging each other's qualifications to have an opinion.  That's what you just did do, despite your follow-up claims to the contrary. 

@lewm  :  Thank's to share your proccess that's way different from mine, I did my test comparison almost the same way than you due that one time I had 10 tonearms/cartridges operating in my system but those kind of test proccess was so many years ago that I can't remember for sure when I left to dii it.

My " tree " instead " forest " test proccess is a way simple and I don't need any other tool than the ears because when you know exactly what to look for the ears are the best tool under the audio world and way faster than the normal " forest " procces almost all audiophiles use.

I remember that first time at A.Porter time I took no more than 10 minutes to note a system fault and another 10 minutes to fixed and A.Porter agree on that " fixed ".

In Idaho I was seated " against " MBL speakers, Technics SP-10MK3, Schroeder tonearm, tube amps by the great regarded designer that unfortunatelly pass away and that at this moment can't remember his name and the cartridge was the SS Straing Gauge and the owner had the LP I need it and he did it and my rigth first impression ( first 5 minutes. ) was a truly Impressive but then I ask that gentleman that in that LP I need to listen a specific track and after listened I was totally sure that those HF were wrong: all these in 15 minutes and over the time all SG owners confirmed what I knew before they. After half hour he changed cartridge to listen the Lyra Olympos and thigs changed for the better through the Essential 3160. The system owner was deep founded with the SG and I try don't insist in other way but have some fun just listening MUSIC.

Btw, I listening for the first time a Rockport TT an Acapella top speakers with F.Crowder that I named.

Lew I did and do not try in anyway to " disparaging " you . I was almost sure and that's why I ask you to share your proccess that that was your proccess.

When I said that's not your fault I posted that not to be condescend with you because I know I'm not condescend with no body: this is not the way I'm and sorry for that: I'm straigth/direct no matters what.

In my proccess I'm not looking for what sounds good or excellent but the other way around: look for specific " recording errors " in  specific LP tracks. With my " trees " I can in no more than 1 hour prove/detect that the VIV is wrong no matter what and with out need to measure nothing. That is not my capacity but the whole test proccess capacities.

I'm not conceited in anyway and that's why I posted audiophiles names/places and no my ears are no better than yours but just " truer " thank's to the proccess estrategy.

R.

So if you ever get to listen to the Viv Lab tonearm under conditions that are familiar to you from past experience, and if you can manage to divorce yourself from pre-formed opinion, I would be very interested to know what you think of it. Until then, you cannot add anything, because we know already about its theoretical shortcomings.