Electronics for Harbeths -- $5-10K

kennyc: Your last suggestion, on its face, is a logical approach. But you’ve got to understand that I’m not gonna buy a $10,000+ component unless I’m convinced that I’m likely to keep it for a very long time -- not just as a "tryout." I’ve mentioned elsewhere that I’m no spring chicken and lugging around a 50-pound box doesn’t seem like my best solution when a 24lb alternative that has more flexible connectivity (at least for my specific application) and that the overwhelming majority of those with first-hand listening experience believe is superior overall sonically, sells for $1000 less.

I sense that you have an emotional attachment to Hegel, so please don’t take offense. I’m not denigrating Hegel’s products in any way. I understand that the H600 is a superb piece of gear. It’s just that I’m now gathering that the Ayre EX-8, as far as I can tell from out here, is probably a better fit for me.

C

PS -- I was aware of Shaw’s preference for Hegel products and that Hegel amps are used in some shows’ Harbeth booths. In fact, during the first weeks of my research, the H590 & H600 were at the top of my list. It’s not fair to state that I "initially rejected" Hegel. It’s more accurate to say that I initially embraced the H600.

The thing is, the Ayre Series 8 gear turned out to be an even better choice. I suggest you do a deep dive yourself. Charlie Hansen’s "diamond" output-stage designs are brilliant -- Class A/AB amps as light, compact, and efficient as a Class D, but with superb sound quality. And from what I’ve been told repeatedly, they boast great synergy with the entire Harbeth line.

As for Krell, I’ve heard so many mixed reports about the 300i, hardware and sound quality, that I’m staying away. The clincher was when one of my closest friends on the East Coast auditioned it at length and came away with the same negative comments that I’ve heard elsewhere.  I can't speak to the issue first-hand, but the impression I get is that the 300i fails to live up to Krell's long-held reputation for excellent build quality.

ryder:

re: Luxman, I've never heard the new Lux gear.  When I refer to the Luxman sound as "analytical," I'm merely repeating what other, ostensibly unrelated, posters have told me.  I'm ready to be convinced otherwise, but, as I'm sure you can appreciate, I don't have much to work with other than what other people are telling me.  Again, no way for me to actually hear any of this gear before I buy.

Re: Silver Apex, your observations are exactly the opposite of mine.  The only time I rigorously A-B'd my SA cables was when I used them to replace wiring in my phono path.  They produced greater detail and a more holographic soundstage, sure, but they were less sweet and as far from tube-like as I can imagine. (Did I mention that I'm a vintage tube-roller going back 40 years? I know what tubes soudn like.) 

More to the point, one reason I'm upgrading my electronics now is because the Silver Apex's "analytic" character (sorry!) actually made the flaws of my $2000 Class D amps impossible to tolerate. 

I consider the difference between our experiences evidence  that the only way to know what a particular cable will sound like in your system is to put it in your system.  Cables are extraordinarily complex beasts and can interact with other components in the craziest ways.  That's why I NEVER recommend specific cables to friends. My approach has been to learn first-hand what each mfr's "house sound" is in your system and then stick with the brand that best matches the sonic personality you need.  Analysis Plus and Audioquest (strange bedfellow, I know) seem to work best for me -- at least on segments of my system that don't include Class D amplification!

helomech: "$5K-$10K amplification is going to easily outclass your speakers such that the Harbeths become the new bottleneck. I understand why that would be hard to believe given all the hype surrounding this brand, but take the Harbeths along and compare them to nearly any $10K/pair speakers on $5K electronics and you’ll understand why I say this. The resolution required to justify most $5K^ amplification (especially in the bass and highs) just isn’t there."

helomech: Hmmm... Don’t take this wrong, but your comments are at odds with those of every other person I’ve spoken to, as well as with my own first-hand experience. As I’ve mentioned, there’s no place within thousands of miles where I could "take my Harbeths." But more to the point, given that your opinion is incongruent with those of so many knowledgable, experienced persons -- from Hartley and Atkinson on down to buddies with Golden Ears (even the late Art Dudley personally recommended Harbeths to me when I was forced to sell my Quad ESLs) -- please let me know why I should take your conclusory opinions seriously without any details to back them up?

E.g., Are your comments based on first-hand direct comparisons?  If so, please be specific about source material, associated equipment, and room characteristics so others can put your observations in context. If you have something of value to offer, I would certainly give it consideration.

Thanks for your comments.

@cundare2

I was referring to the Acrolink 8N-A2080III having a warm and liquid midrange with a tube-like glow in the highs, not the Silver Apex which you currently own.  I don't have experience with the Silver Apex.

I consider the difference between our experiences evidence that the only way to know what a particular cable will sound like in your system is to put it in your system. Cables are extraordinarily complex beasts and can interact with other components in the craziest ways. That’s why I NEVER recommend specific cables to friends.

I agree with this. The only difference is I will recommend specific cables which I have experience with to people whereas you don’t do that. To me, cables are the same as other components such as amps or DACs. You will only know if it will work out for you once you have it in your system. The point I’m trying to convey is you may achieve your goal with a different cable rather than looking at changing amps.

Ah! So much for my reading comprehension!

Your recommendation is a good one, but I think regardless, an amp upgrade is long overdue. But you’re making me think that I might need to incorporate a cable re-evalution at the same time.

What’s interesting is the fact that the amps sound the worst when fed by 100% Silver Apex cables. Yes, there are a zillion other factors that make each signal path unique in its own way, but still...

One possibility is that the Silver Apex segments sound the most Class D-ish because they’re the most revealing. Unfortunately, it’s not easy to swap them all out, since some have singular connectors, like the tonearm cable.

Regardless, I would hate to give up those expensive cables. They’re so impressive, even mind-boggling, in terms of presentation and detail. No other upgrade that I’ve ever made in this system has done so much to promote a broad, truly 3-dimensional soundstage. After I inserted them into the system, I could not stop listening to vinyl. The endorphin rush -- the thing that keeps so many of us in this hobby -- was intense.

I just hope that swapping a $2000 amp for an $11,000 amp produces as dramatic an improvement.