The most dynamic & transparent bookshelf

"OK Zd542, you're preaching to the choir."

You're right in that I figured you already knew this. I made the comment because I thought some of the other posters may not be aware. I should have put some type of disclaimer in.

The only point of yours that I would mention is that instead of getting more efficient speakers, you can get a more powerful amp. Yes, I know the OP already has one, but given his demands, he may have to modify his approach. Look at this once more.

"My next aim for powerful speakers, will be something near perfect immune to distortions, must be extreme dynamic, go very loud and does not make the sound quality collapsed, also I insist to stick with bookshelf size, few options in my mind:

Ascend Acoustics Sierra 1 (with NrT upgrade, worth?)
Mark&Daniel Ruby
Dynaudio DM 2/8
Proac Response D2
Soundfield Audio Monitor 1

For Dynaudio and Mark&Daniel, I have concern on power and drive efficiency, though I'm using a Class D Audio SDS-400C power amp, it work damn good with my Denton (warm + transparent gear goes really well). My considerations based on factors in this order: price, near full range dynamic, neutral and transparent sonic quality, availability (as I'm from Malaysia, not easy to achieve those speakers), and last your opinions? Any other recommendations? Once again, I'm not looking for speakers with colorations, must extremely dynamic, dead neatral and transparent without snake oil!"

If the OP wants those results, he must do some listening. There's no way around it. That's quite a list. I'll mention the reference again. Without more input and work on the OP's part, I'm not convinced that what he's asking for is even achievable. And even if it is, the price of it all may be more a lot more than he's planning on.

Zd542: Thanks for your reminder. Yay, I'm thinking is that possible too, also I'm starting to save cash now, so it just matter of time, eventually I can get a pair that satisfied me, so I need very careful thinking, consideration, and other measurement whenever possible. A pair of TAD reference 1 definitely is neverland for me but at the same time is dreamland for me, not that it's not the best, it just that I'm not capable of :(

The only point of yours that I would mention is that instead of getting more efficient speakers, you can get a more powerful amp. Yes, I know the OP already has one, but given his demands, he may have to modify his approach. Look at this once more.

If a pair of speakers are significantly underpowered, that can be an option, however it doesn't apply here. The OP's speakers are rated to 100w, and he is using a 140w amp. For a 3db increase he would need a 280w amp. Do you really think that is suitable for his speaker? Sure he could get a 150w Ayre V5 like yours, and things may improve in dynamics, but not volume, and it's not in his budget.

Using his 140w amp on a 90db speaker would be the same as 350w on his current 86db speaker, and trying to use that much power on the current speaker is not very smart. So the only solution to his problem is a higher sensitivity speaker. The challenge will be to find one he likes that is in his budget, and can only be determined by listening.

"The OP's speakers are rated to 100w, and he is using a 140w amp. For a 3db increase he would need a 280w amp. Do you really think that is suitable for his speaker?"

I must have missed what speakers the OP has because I thought this thread was to find a new pair. That said, you're not going win me over with specs like this. Given what was said in the earlier posts, it looks like we are in agreement that amp specs are very unreliable. Given that, if his speakers are rated at 100 watts, that still leaves me with the same question; who's watts are we talking about? Then to go on about needing 10x the power to get an additional 3db in volume. Of course, we all know that, and it sounds like a reasonable argument, but its not that relevant in this case.

"Do you really think that is suitable for his speaker? Sure he could get a 150w Ayre V5 like yours, and things may improve in dynamics, but not volume, and it's not in his budget."

Again, I'm not sure exactly what speaker we are talking about, but my answer is going to be almost certainly, yes. An Ayre like I have would probably be worth the extra money. Not to get too side tracked, but in my main system, I actually have 2 Ayre V-5's vertical biamping a pair of Vandersteen 2's. That's over 10k in amplification for a pair of 2k speakers. I'm a very big believer in the concept of putting my money where my mouth is. (And if you haven't noticed I have a pretty big mouth and it needs all the help git can get.) All I'm getting at here, is that I'm not telling someone to do something that I wouldn't do myself.

Back to comparing the Sony to the Ayre. My claim is that volume isn't the relevant factor here. Because at 10x power for 3db in volume, we're talking about total volume. Both amps can produce x db of noise. For a meaningful comparison, the volume of specific frequencies must be considered. Using a run of the mill, full range floor standing speaker, aprox 88-90db that doesn't drop too far down to make it a very difficult load, as an example. As the frequencies get lower, my Sony receiver will not be able to produce those frequencies at a consistently level volume. It will continue to struggle until at some point, it isn't even able to produce the frequencies at all. The Ayre, on the other hand, will have no problem driving the speaker at all frequencies. That's the real difference in power that you won't see by looking at the specs. Also remember that I'm not even touching on the subjective qualities, that at least for me, will justify the Ayre's price.

"Using his 140w amp on a 90db speaker would be the same as 350w on his current 86db speaker, and trying to use that much power on the current speaker is not very smart. So the only solution to his problem is a higher sensitivity speaker. The challenge will be to find one he likes that is in his budget, and can only be determined by listening."

This is just speculation because there's many other factors involve here besides what's in your quote. (Although I do agree with your last sentence.) What I can tell you for sure, is that the OP is going to have a moment of truth. He's going to hook up some equipment, listen to it and then make a decision as to whether he likes it or not. The only real question is going to be if he does this before, or after he spends a lot of money.

Yes Zd, you missed the OP's speakers, and it appears you're missing even more. I never said you need 10x power for a 3db increase in volume. To achieve a 3db increase in volume, you either double amp power or increase speaker sensitivity by 3db. This is a basic fact.

Now I do agree with you about the difference in amps being able to deliver power into a full bandwidth of frequencies with a varying impedance load of a speaker. Sure that Sony receiver will not deliver the power to a large full range inefficient speaker, but that is not the case here. The OP's amp (140w@8ohms, 280W@4ohms, stable to 2ohms) is definitely capable to fully drive his small 2-way monitor. Going off on tangents about extreme scenarios just confuses the discussion.

This is just speculation because there's many other factors involve here besides what's in your quote.

Yes, I have assumed his power amp is being driven by an adequate signal, but please tell me what factors, and be specific to his setup, not some extreme scenario.

Sorry, not speculation, he can't add more power to the speaker, so the only way to achieve more volume is use a different speaker with a higher sensitivity.