Garrard 301 motor and rumble

To Ralph Karsten; this person absolutely misunderstood your point about powerful motors eliminating stylus drag-induced speed variation and yet you refrained from correcting him.

@fsonicsmith I missed his comment.

FWIW, We stopped making our model 208 when Technics came out with the entirely revamped SL1200. I regard it as a better machine and have one in my home system. With a different platter pad...

@mijostyn

The old idler wheel turntables are less speed stable than any high end belt drive table primarily because of the older motors.

I don’t think this statement is accurate. The synchronous motors on some of the vintage machines are excellent as long as the AC mains frequency is stable. If the machine is properly serviced out, there isn’t any stretch between the drive and the load. So they should be more speed stable (and in practice this is borne out), but a lot depends also on the platter mass. The Empire machines got their speed stability from both the motor and the platter being very effective flywheels. Only a few of the idler drive machines had platters of that kind of mass.

I think the main reason you don’t see idler drive machines in production now is the cost of making the idler and speed change mechanism (since they are not made in large quantities). They require more service to keep them running properly. Its a lot easier to engineer a belt drive with only two moving parts which is also easier to fix since most of the time its just a belt replacement, plus anyone who wishes to be a turntable manufacturer has to compete with Technics, whose direct drive system is competent, reliable, well-priced and overall excellent.

fsonic, I too am in disagreement with Mijostyn's  bald pronouncements, on some occasions, first because he is sometimes (but not all the time) wrong, and second because he fails to include three little words, after delivering a broadside, "in my opinion".  That in itself is a bit provocative. However, it is his intention to drop bombs, which is what just happened with respect to idler drive.  Just take it with a grain of salt; you are one of many audiophiles who prefer idler drive turntables, which in itself is testimony to their virtues.  He dislikes direct drive, as well. This does not deter me one iota from my chosen preference for same. In fact, he ONLY likes suspended belt drives.  I wouldn't have one in my system, if the suspension consists of springs. I would also take issue with the notion that no one ever contradicts Mijostyn. That is simply not the case. He usually takes it well.  He is actually quite knowledgeable and experienced, so it is folly to criticize him on that basis alone.

As regards idler drive motors, and particularly the Garrard motor, Mark Kelly, a definite 301 aficionado, used to point out regularly that although the motor does consume Watts, compared to other TT motors, it is in fact not that high in torque output.  Audiophiles confuse power consumption with power output. What accounts for the immediacy and dynamics of the 301 sound is I think the directness of the idler drive, the very low compliance of the drive system, rather than the essential power of the motor.

lewm

I too am in disagreement with Mijostyn's  bald pronouncements ...he fails to include three little words, after delivering a broadside, "in my opinion".  That in itself is a bit provocative. However, it is his intention to drop bombs ...

That is my impression as well. Indeed, some people enjoy dropping these rhetorical "bombs," finding some satisfaction in them. I generally avoid that kind of engagement, whether online or in person.

Thanks Lewm and Ralph. Ralph for your candor and integrity and Lewm for giving me some needed perspective and advice to settle down. 

Ralph is a prime example of what is good on this Board-sharing information and assisting others when asked. 

It is unfortunate that some take delight in playing at or being the provocateur. Others feel that this a forum for verbal combat and I am not blameless in that regard. 

For what it is worth Lewm, I don't prefer idlers. I fell into them. My TD124 was my Dad's. He bought it in a NYC audio shop the same year that I was born, 1959, while on a work related trip for Wright Patterson AFB. After deciding that several different VPI decks were not for me, I took on the project of having his mothballed and non-operational 124 first repaired and then modified and hot-rodded to the nines. The custom stainless steel bearing assembly utilizes two ball bearings rotating on top of each other and was designed and custom made (IIRC) by Greg Metz and is no longer in production. The platter is much heavier than standard and also supplied from Greg. I don't recall his source. Much of this is detailed in my profile with photos. After being amazed at the results of this project, I again "fell" into buying a near NOS early grease bearing 301 and again having it modded to the max with parts mostly sourced from Ray at Classic HiFi in the UK. However, after trying his hugely massive brass platter along the lines of the Shindo I ended up happiest with the custom copper topped alloy 301 platter sold by Steve Dobbins.

I will readily admit that the beauty of the custom plinth options that are integral to an all-out effort at making an idler perform at its best was part of my motivation and remains a large part of my pride of ownership. You won't find that kind of aesthetic with virtually any DD or belt drive deck. This of course being a matter of taste and purely subjective. 

When Brian Walsh of TTsetup.com first laid eyes on the plinth to my 301 his comment was "this belongs in a museum-I have never seen such a beautiful plinth" (yes, the "gentleman" referenced above will quip it belongs in a museum as an historical relic). .

I believe the Reed 3P's with their German made "Firewire" continuous wiring from RCA's to cartridge clips-along with the all of the other attributes of the tonearm design-contribute to a large degree to my overall happiness with the result. I would go so far as to say that is very likely that the same Reed 3P's mated to a very good belt or direct drive table would result in equally pleasurable though slightly different sound. 

And for the record (pun intended), everything I ever say in this forum and on this Board is just my humble opinion and I almost always say so. 

I just ignore him now…. i made errors of engagement along the way… 

@fsonicsmith I have my Dad’s 1961 MC240….. immeasurable joy